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3d - Printworx

Printing 3d Forum

Quad shopping list

Started by Zuul, Sunday,October 14, 2012, 01:28:54

Previous topic - Next topic

Zuul

Hi there
As mentioned in the welcome section, im putting together an order for a quad, ideally suited for handling a go pro as smoothly as possible, on a budget...
So far the plan is:
Tx: Turnigy 9x TX/RX combo
Frame: DJI frame clone with integrated pcb
Flight controller: KK  (kk plus?)
Motors: from what ive read lower kv would be better for stability, less vibration
Props: ? big props, slow fly props?
Esc';s: Do i just go 25/30 Amp so I';m covered for any motors, are there benefits of using lower rated ones?
Power distribution: Not needed if i go with above frame?
Bat Alarm: Good idea? will it add much drain on battery?
Battery: Lipo. decent mah rating? C?
Charger: obviously something that can charge/discharge lips. What should i especially look out?
Extras: servo leads. nylon spacers? don';t want to miss silly little items on the order...

As far as the controller goes, i like the price tag and the supposed simplicity.
Ive read that piezo gyros are less sensitive, so could possibly cause less ';twitchyness'; on quad, or are mem gyros the answer?

Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks a lot

Gaza07

Sunday,October 14, 2012, 11:02:40 #1 Last Edit: Sunday,October 14, 2012, 11:05:54 by Gaza07
Hi Zuul
Ive created a shopping list of the gear I think would suit your needs from Rctimer see the picture below,

[attach=1]

From Hobby King

The Turnigy 9x would do the job fine for you
I would go for the KK2 flight controller with the built in screen as its the easiest to setup and has auto level
Batteries you can aslo get from Hobby King some thing like 3s 2200mah 35c or more
you will also need some xt60 connectors and silicone wire to complete the project

I would suggest you learn to fly the basic copter before adding a camera and gimble although if you do want the gimble straight away the one on rctimer looks very good, you would also need to get a large under carriage to be able to land with a gimble fitted  ~~


teslahed

Gary forgot to add 5 or 6 of the bolt on prop adapters rather than 1;

http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=545&productname=

as it';s best to have one or two spare. The list looks good though.

One circlip short of a quadcopter.
 1 lobe short of an antenna.

neagron

An other god battery is the Gen-Ace from Giant Shark,also comes fitted with deans connector if your soldering skills not to good,Marty.

Gav

cool shopping list Gaza!  Those bits will make for a cool quad indeed.  1000kv motors are spot on.  You get my official seal of approval.  A signed copy is in the post (supply your own frame)

Balders

Would strongly recommend the KKV2 board. It';s been performing great on my cheapy quad.  Numerous on-board video';s on my youtube.com/baldric450 channel
Growing old is mandatory...Growing up is optional

FPV Guru
BNUC-S qualified
Sbaps.co.uk

Zuul

Thanks for all the replies.
Is the kk2 with lcd also technically the same board as the kkv2? (obviously the lcd being a big difference)
Would the auto level create more twitchy footage if its constantly fighting for level? Can you adjust sensitivity?

The logic behind the carbon blades? Theyre obviously a lot more expensive than some on the market. Are they more precise than plastic ones? Better balance?
How would they compare to well balanced cheapies? The Length of props you suggested, is that ideal for a bit more stability?

Would it be worth getting higher rating esc';s for future possible upgrades?
Any truth in lower rpm motors being better for stability?

Sorry for the twenty questions, just trying to get my head around this and avoid too many trial and error purchases...

Cheers

teslahed

Monday,October 15, 2012, 12:08:12 #7 Last Edit: Tuesday,October 16, 2012, 16:02:21 by teslahed
The KK2 is only available with the screen - you can buy the KK1 without the screen but i wouldn';t recommend it. It';s only slightly cheaper and the screen and other features make the KK2 a better choice.

Carbon blades are much stiffer than regular plastic ones, which means you get a much better response to control inputs and also to inputs from the flight controller responding to signals from sensors etc. Your quadcopter will fly much better with good props. You may want to buy a packet of the regular cheap plastic blades as well for the first few flights - you are likely to break a few. Once you have your quadcopter in the air and doing very basic circles you';ll find better props save you a lot of hard work.

Well balanced blades perform better due to reduced vibrations - you';ll need a prop balancer. The expensive carbon blades may need less balancing than cheap plastic ones but you';ll still benefit from doing it.

If you can afford 30 amp speed controllers over 20 - they wont do any harm. A bit more headroom isn';t a bad thing and you';ll be able to reuse them on a larger quadcopter in the future. The only downside is they weight slightly more - possibly an extra 20 grams in total. Your quadcopter will be about 1kg anyway so this doesn';t make much difference.

Keep asking questions if you are unsure about anything!
One circlip short of a quadcopter.
 1 lobe short of an antenna.

Gaza07

The KK2 / KKv2 are the same thing its just people refer to them in different ways, I would strongly urge you go for the KK2 rather any of the older versions as the new one is easier to setup and more stable, you can fly around with out the auto level on, but if you get in to trouble it will help when learning to fly, I would definitely consider upgrading to the 30a esc';s I almost put those on the list but saved a few dollars buy dropping to 20a and I use both with no problems, A lower kv motor won';t offer you more stability but what it would do is allow you to run with bigger props on a bigger frame which would be more stable, I run the 2830/750kv motors on this frame and they aren';t as good as the 1000kv version, but I have also used the 750kv motors with 12" props which the 1000kv motors wouldnt handle,
As for props the ones in the list are very good and worth the extra expense but as Teslahed said you would probably be better off with cheaper plastic props while learning to fly, learning to fly multi rotors can take some time for some one totally new to air borne radio control,
The frame in the list is very well priced and tough which makes it very suitable for some one learning to fly or for more advanced pilots,
I would worry to much about hanging a camera of a copter at the start you would be better off concentrating on learning to fly and learn to fly well before risking any camera equipment  ~~

Zuul

Yeah definitely don';t plan to mount camera gear straight away ;)
No 1000kv motors listed under multirotors on hobbyking, These are listed under general out runners:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/%5F%5F12921%5F%5FD2830%5F11%5F1000kv%5FBrushless%5FMotor.html
will they work?

Gaza07

I haven';t tried those motors so I cant really comment on them except that they look ok,
Teslahed had some very nice motors from Hobby King I';m sure he will be along shortly and post a link to them, Is there a reason you don';t like the rctimer ones ?
You could look at rctimer 2212 range they are also a very good motor, or they have a new HP2212 1000kv motor on the site designed for multi rotors I quite fance trying some my self http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=813&productname=  ~~

Zuul

No good reason really. Just trying to put all my eggs in one basket ;)
They just have the same figures (2830-11) as the ones you recommended.
What do the numbers represent or is it just the code?
Is there a general shaft diameter to go with for quads? Shorter or longer shafts better?

Gaza07

They look more like the rctimer 2212 wouldn';t surprise me if they didn';t all come from the same factory and just get re labeled  ~~
I think rhe 2830 or 2212 is to do with the motor size and the 11 is the amount of winding';s in the motor they will proably be fine  ~~

There is an old english saying that you should never put all your eggs in one basket  :rolleyes:

Zuul

Haha yep I know the saying well. Should have said shopping cart...
Might split the order then. Like the look of those rctimer motors, and the carbon props.
The shipping amounted to a crazy figure once I loaded my cart on HK...

Gaza07

Yea the shipping at HK can some times get a bit high where as rctimer always seems low but its worth paying the extra couple of dollars on rctimer for the registered option  ~~
Ive had tons of gear from rctimer and always had good support from them so I doubt you will have any problems ordering from them  ~~

teslahed

Wednesday,October 17, 2012, 12:48:46 #15 Last Edit: Wednesday,October 17, 2012, 12:53:07 by teslahed
Quote from: Zuul on Tuesday,October 16, 2012, 09:47:36
No good reason really. Just trying to put all my eggs in one basket ;)
They just have the same figures (2830-11) as the ones you recommended.
What do the numbers represent or is it just the code?
Is there a general shaft diameter to go with for quads? Shorter or longer shafts better?


Choosing what motors to get for your quadcopter is a complex business. If you want the cheapest possible motors that will get you in the air then the rctimer 2212-13 1000kv;

http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=118&productname=

are a good choice.

However, the 2830-11 1000kv;

http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=121&productname=

are a better choice because i hear the build quality is a bit more solid and if you are handy with a dremmel you can saw the axle off and replace it with a bolt on prop adapter;

http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=545&productname=

these seem to work much better than the regular ';collet'; style prop adapter as they hold the propeller closer to the centre of the motor which minimises the effects of vibrations and they seem less prone to randomly falling off.

Some motors come with the bolt on prop adapters as standard. RCtimer recently started selling these;

http://www.rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=813&productname=

which look ideal for quadcopters for the price as they come with bolt on prop adapters as standard and look well designed with supposedly quite good bearings etc. I can';t personally recommend them just because they are so new i haven';t tried them or read any reviews but they are probably a good choice. If you choose these you can expect lots of forum members pestering you to write a review!

Hobbyking do the sk3 range which is similar in that it includes a bolt on prop adapter. One of my quadcopter uses these;

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18152__Turnigy_Aerodrive_SK3_2826_1130kv_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html

with 8 inch props for stunt flying, and they work great. For a slightly larger quadcopter for carrying a go pro with 9 inch props something like this might be better;

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18116__Turnigy_Aerodrive_SK3_2830_1130kv_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html

So generally shorter shafts are better for quadcopters as they allow you to mount the propeller closer to the quadcopter where vibrations have less of an effect and small knocks to the motor are less likely to destroy your bearings. Bolt on prop adapters are worth considering if you are looking to get slightly better quality motors that run a bit nicer (and likely cost at least slightly more). Not all motors can take them.

1000kv is a good rating for 10 inch props. You could look at a lower kv rating if you were building a larger quadcopter with larger props or consider a higher KV rating if you were building something for stunt flying with 8 inch props, but you';ve said you want to carrying a go-pro so we';ve sized your motors accordingly.

If you were more interested in stunt or fun flying (or learning to fly) than carrying a go-pro I';d be recommending smaller motors, smaller props and a smaller and lighter quadcopter. You';d save a little bit of money but I don';t think it would carry the camera quite so well.
One circlip short of a quadcopter.
 1 lobe short of an antenna.

Zuul

Thanks for the great info.
What';s a basic guide for motors that will work on quads? I see the hobbyking ones you suggested are on back order.
May look at those new ones on rctimer.
There are sooo many motors with similar specs, maybe easier to say what wont really work?
Obviously it seems around the 1000kv mark is what i should aim at. They must be outrunners it seems?
The other option to bolt on adapters like the new rctimer ones above is what, a simple collet system?

Thanks again

Zuul

Hi
At long last my parts have arrived. Got mostly suggested parts in this thread (including the new rc timer motors) and a few other bits.
Picking up the HK box to tomorrow, and then the fun begins....

Gaza07

Very good Zuul we look forward to seeing your build and don';t forget we are here if you need any help  ~~

Zuul

Hello again.
So eventually got everything built, after small set-backs like forgetting to add male to male servo leads to my cart.
Ended up with mostly the suggested shopping list, including the quad specific rctimer 1000kv motors, (Only small issue with the motors, one of the prop adapters had a slightly badly machined thread which i swapped with a spare motor, otherwise they seem rather awesome)
turningy 9x TX, 25 amp Plush esc';s HK KKV2 board. In between a busy work schedule, i squeezed in whatever flying time I could. Was really getting the hang of things (after a few sets of sacrificial props. There is "enough space to fly" in my garden, but not really.) when i had a bit of a frantic moment and ended up landing a bit hot and snapping one of the fake DJI flame wheel arms.
I swapped the arm with a spare, neatened everything else up a bit, made board more secure, decided to make white arms the front, added a ping pong ball to aid in orientation, and now nothing feels right. The throttle seems very choppy. If i try hover the throttle seems to blip occasionally causing some sporadic activity.
Any ideas? Nothing seems obviously wrong, motors all seem tight and wobble free and rotate freely.

Cheers
Greg

Jumpy07

Quote from: Zuul on Tuesday,December 11, 2012, 19:21:52
Hello again.
So eventually got everything built, after small set-backs like forgetting to add male to male servo leads to my cart.
Ended up with mostly the suggested shopping list, including the quad specific rctimer 1000kv motors, (Only small issue with the motors, one of the prop adapters had a slightly badly machined thread which i swapped with a spare motor, otherwise they seem rather awesome)
turningy 9x TX, 25 amp Plush esc';s HK KKV2 board. In between a busy work schedule, i squeezed in whatever flying time I could. Was really getting the hang of things (after a few sets of sacrificial props. There is "enough space to fly" in my garden, but not really.) when i had a bit of a frantic moment and ended up landing a bit hot and snapping one of the fake DJI flame wheel arms.
I swapped the arm with a spare, neatened everything else up a bit, made board more secure, decided to make white arms the front, added a ping pong ball to aid in orientation, and now nothing feels right. The throttle seems very choppy. If i try hover the throttle seems to blip occasionally causing some sporadic activity.
Any ideas? Nothing seems obviously wrong, motors all seem tight and wobble free and rotate freely.

Cheers
Greg


All part of learning Greg..

Throttle issue could be one of many things.. to be honest when learning throttle control is the hardest thing..   some ESC';s offer smoother action as well ..then others.. especially if flashed with Simonk firmware..

Worth re-calibrating ESC';s first.. some Expo on your throttle curve  on ur TX also helps..

The 9x also has a friction plate / ratchet in the TX on the throttle.. which some people throw away...

Craig
BNUC-S Pilot with PfCo /PFAW.
UAQ / CAA PfCo Instructor / Flight Assessor

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Smeagol

Quote from: Jumpy07 on Tuesday,December 11, 2012, 19:34:35
The 9x also has a friction plate / ratchet in the TX on the throttle.. which some people throw away...

I guess it';s down to personal preference, but is it better to be friction free or use the plate to give smoothness.

Gaza07

Im also thinking maybe you should re calibrate and see if that cures the problem  ~~

Zuul

I did a sensor calibrate a few times after my change around. Haven';t re-calibrated esc';s individually though.
I havent had anything to compare the 9x too so Im quite happy with the feel so far. Very frustrating as i was so pleased with how smooth and precise everything felt. Haven';t touched any curve settings.
Its like the throttle is revving itself whilst i';m trying to keep things smooth.

Gaza07

Im not sure what could be causing the revving up as your board doesnt have any kind pf barometer that could be causing anything like that to happen, could there be a bad connection some where do all your motors start at exactly the same time ?

Zuul

Re checked, reset, re-calibrated and re just about everything else and its still flying like a sick bird.
Knocked the KK board out of whack when I "crashed"?
Havent swapped out any escs yet. One motor definitely seems to be cranking a bit harder than the others for some reason. Swapped that motor out, still the same.

Gaza07

Sounds strange how a crash could affect it like that, if you connect the esc';s and motors direct to the rx is the throttling then smooth, if you try this and it is then we know the kk board is the cause,
Isnt there some thing in the Misc menu to balance the motors up I seem to recall Marty saying, if you had calibrated and the motors didnt start together to look in there but ive never looked my self so not sure  ~~

teslahed

If one of your motor axles got bent in the crash then you could be getting vibrations from that which might be affecting the flight of the qaudcopter. The best way to check for this is to unplug all but 1 motor and spinning that one up whilst holding the qaudcopter and feeling for vibrations. Do this for each of your 4 motors - if one is much worse than the others that';s your problem.
One circlip short of a quadcopter.
 1 lobe short of an antenna.

Zuul

aaaaargh.
Motor 3 (x config) definitely seemed to be spinning faster than others. Ive now changed that motor and esc. That motor now kicks in MUCH later on the stick than the other 3. Any ideas?
Ive re-calibrated everything over and over...

Zuul

I now have all motors starting at the same time, but my motor 1 speed increases all on its own...