New to quads, new build advise please...

[Dave17]

So first off I’ve never even flown a quad I’ve built many roc cars so I real building a quad is a great idea for me and the sort of spec I eventually would like would cost me stupid money off the shelf. So I need a bit of help with my list of build parts.... well a lot of help really

So....what do I want it to do...

I’d like to take some footage as I live in a decent bit of countryside and would like to do some point to point autonomous too eventually I’d like To have a decent flight time and range to take it over a few fields


So here’s where the questions start.....

Frame...I like the carbon ones and was looking at around the 220mm ones will this hinder flight times and battery’s I can use? Is it best to start off with a larger frame?

Motors... again I have no idea I saw the max 2300kv I think they were on a similar sized quad that looked good...but again I dunno

Flight controller, I pretty much thought the app 2.8 with external gps and compass fit the bill

Esc.... again I think I’m better off with 4 that suit the motors I use... again any ideas welcome


I don’t have an unlimited budget so if I have to start by getting a quad up and running basic that I can add too later I can, I have a few months till the weather is nice enough anyway

[ched]

Welcome. If you want long flight times and a stable camera platform a 220 size is far from ideal. I would say you need a 450 size up. I am not up on route planning flight controllers but I think software wise iNav is something for you to research.

[AmiSMB]

I wanted something better than my Emax 250 to do video with so went with a S500. It has a 5500mah 4s pack just under 20min flight times with 950kv 2212 brushless motors. The FC on board is a Pixracer running Ardupilot And I have a Ublox 8N including compass connected
. I use Q Ground control and have a two way 433mhz telemetry connection on top of the telemetry that comes from the Frsky X4R. I put a FeiYu Tech Mini3d Gimbal at the front with a Firefly 8s and get very good quality footage. It costs quite a lot putting it together especially time! I think the xiaomi mi 4k looks very good value for money if you want something off the shelf.

[Dave17]

Cheers guys. So you both think i should go bigger. like i said It will be my first quad so will that make a difference? I dont mind a chunkyer slightly slower quad just want to build the right one first time.

[orfordness]

If you have NEVER flown one, I'd build a cheap 450 and get some practice in!

[ched]

If you have never flown I would get a 'toy' first. Something like a Hubsan H107 or a Eachines E010 like https://goo.gl/Ahg66J for less than £10.
OK so they are both small indoor quads but they will help you understand how to control them without much expense and you can play indoors no matter what the weather.
They will teach you hand eye co ordination and get you a feel for orientation (ie controls reversed when the quad is facing you etc)

Hope that helps?

[Dave17]

Ok you twisted my arm guys 450 it is...

Yeah ive never flow one before at all... i have a lil helecopter that you fly with the ipad tho... but every time you or it moves the signal is broken and crash it goes and trying to adjust trim on a ipad screen before it buzzes off is imposible and anything more than a fart blows it miles away!

I am not worried about breaking one just need some pointers.

So a 450 frame... so what motors and rotor size should i look at? Does the bigger frame mean bigger batterys or more than 1 now?

Going to browse for frames to show you all for approval  ::)

[ched]

If you have never flown I would definitely get a 'toy' one to play with to learn how to control one.
Do you have any radio control, soldering, etc experience?

Have a look at this http://amzn.to/2ClEYVf Reviews are not great but it does list the components and their specs. It might give you some ideas. If you look at the motors ( 2212 920KV) so the 2212 is the physical size and the 920KV means they spin 920 rpm per volt applied. So with a 3S (3 cell Lipo battery 11.1v 3.7v per cell but will vary from 12.6v charged down to 11.1v discharged) the props would spin at 920x12.6 =11592rpm. They have been matched with Gemfan 1045 props (10" diameter 45 how far they would screw through the air in 1 rotation) and 30Amp esc (Esc = Electronic Speed Controller) this how the individual motor speeds are controlled.
The control is via a APM2.8 Flight controller and NEO-7M GPS. This is quite old tech but does have lots of good videos on youtube etc.
I have not mentioned any radio transmitter/ receiver as that is more info, then there is battery charging etc......

So what I am saying is that it is all quite a steep learning curve but we have all been there and there is lots of help here.

There are lots of good UK places to buy stuff from like HobbyRC, Electric Wingman, MakeItBuildIt to name but a few. Then there are the foreign companies like Hobby King (they have UK, EU and China warehouses) so watch shipping charges and timescales. Then you have BangGood - China based, cheap, not necessarily good customer support and 3 week + shipping time.

But definitely get a toy to learn indoors with for the time being like http://amzn.to/2zNw28f about £18 (or maybe cheaper from ebay) it will arrive early new year and give you lots of fun. You might want more batteries as flight time is only few mins.

[Dave17]

Thanks for the advice, i was looking at a simlar 450 frame but the black sheep clone this one.. (woudnt buy it with the vague delivery times tho....only 3 months in it!)

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Firberglass-FPV-F450-450-Quadcopter-Frame-450mm-for-GoPro-TBS-Team-BlackSheep/351800528359?epid=879835745&hash=item51e8f20de7:g:AykAAOSwJqpXoYXf

Hate to buy something thats been ripped off but it looks nice and has looks to have loads of space.

You mention 3s lipo too is there a reason why i shouldnt buy the biggest 4s i can and wack it in?

As for build experience i have some. Ive built a battery buggy as a kid and upgraded it some years ago, still at the follks somewhere now 20 odd years on, and then a drift tt01 a few years ago i kept smashing up. Now i bash round with a s 31cc fg marder 2stroke 1/5 scale buggy

[ched]

The frame you are looking at has been copied by lots of companies and is also called a 'White Sheep' https://goo.gl/1FHFdf or a 'Reptile' or 'Discovery'.
I am sure there is one or two in the build section. They are good frames but they are normally setup with a fixed camera (HD like go pro) and a FPV (First Person View) camera at the front. This means that you can only photo things that are directly in front of you. The F450 type frames can have extended legs on and a 3 axis gimbal underneath. This means that the go pro style cam is fully stabilised and can be directed from your transmitter.

One thing to be aware of is that there is a balance between weight and flight time. If you stick a massive battery on the quad will struggle to take off and be using power just to haul the battery round! So it is a balance, I would say with 10" props and 920kv motors a 3S would be good at somewhere between 3300mAh and 5000mAh would probably get you 12 to 15mins flight time.
I have a DJI F450 with 920kV motors and 10" props with a 3 axis gimbal and extended legs and get about 12 mins on a 3S 3300mAh battery.

Have a look at http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?board=70.0

[Dave17]

I guess 15mins is a decent time would me wanting to add gps and auto piolot etc make it less time in the air? Would there be anyway to get say 30mins in the air?

Ive looked through them too they look nice bud 

[ched]

30mins is difficult, unless you buy a dji phantom then you should get there abouts. To be honest a Phantom might actually work out cheaper if you want route planning and 30 min flight times.

Adding gps wont really effect flight time as they are light and don't consume much power. Again auto pilot is part of a flight controller so no difference.

I assume that you realise that legally you must fly within your visual range!

[Dave17]

30mins was just a number not critical. As for the phantom i had looked at the phantom 3 with hard case etc but my other thought was how hard is it gonna be to fix when i bin it... how expensive.... i could have a pile of arms and rotors for a homebrew 450 ready for the inevitable... even with a real nice tx rx combo i think i could build a pretty decent model for say £300ish without fpv or cam gear i dont mind spending more i can buy bits monthly too if i start going crazy   

And legally speaking i have great eye sight i can see the moon in the sky and look how far away that is!      but in all seriousness i have no intentions of flying miles away or over anything other than fields i think the fact my car gos miles on a quids worth of unleaded has just spoilt me a bit....

  daydreams 2 stroke quad copter

So now i know i need a 450 frame would you agree the amazon link above is the motors esc prop combo i should go for?


Thanks again for all your help. Cant wait to start building something again

[ched]

The Amazon 450 I linked to http://amzn.to/2ClEYVf isn't great components at all. The ESC are very old and inflexible, the motors are a no brand (so could be poorly balanced or have bad bearings), the GPS unit is a 7 and not an 8 so it isn't as sensitive or as fast at acquiring sat lock. The Flight controller is no longer made and has been superseded.

If £300 is your budget I would say you can do better.
I will post more in a while.

[sh0wtime]

30mins was just a number not critical. As for the phantom i had looked at the phantom 3 with hard case etc but my other thought was how hard is it gonna be to fix when i bin it... how expensive.... i could have a pile of arms and rotors for a homebrew 450 ready for the inevitable... even with a real nice tx rx combo i think i could build a pretty decent model for say £300ish without fpv or cam gear i dont mind spending more i can buy bits monthly too if i start going crazy   

in all fairness you'd have to be a bit of a Mungo to crash a decent spec Phantom or Mavic. 
they pretty much fly themselves & have proximity sensors to help prevent collisions, if you just let go of the controls they just sit there in the air where you left them. you can even get them to return to home when the battery is running low.
technology wise they're very impressive & pretty much anyone should be able to operate one.
using a little bit of sense you should be able to use either without any issues...

[ched]

OK so just had a quick look at Amazon.
iNav on Matek Flight Controller will give you waypoint navigation return to home etc.


F450 frame http://amzn.to/2lzorFx £16.18
Matek AIO F4 Flight Controller http://amzn.to/2lxq0n6 £37.99
4pcs 30A Esc DYS DS30A 30amp BLHeli_S 3-5S ESC http://amzn.to/2q1vfB3 £42.99
Rcmodelpart 2212 920KV Brushless Motor x4 http://amzn.to/2lw0yi3 £28.14 not ideal but best I can find on Amazon
OEM Ublox NEO-M8N GPS Module Built-in Compass http://amzn.to/2zTNzvx £35.00
1045 Props CW CCW http://amzn.to/2q7v6fg £6.99
FLOUREON 11.1V 3300mAh 3S 40C Lipo http://amzn.to/2CgQULs £14.99 each maybe 2
iMAX B6 charger http://amzn.to/2CgRn0a £14.98 (you will need a 12v psu

Flysky FS-i6 transmitter/receiver http://amzn.to/2ChqvwT £38.92
OR
FrSky Taranis Q X7 Transmitter 16CH http://amzn.to/2CgSqgC £128.99 + a receiver.

I have not tried these components but they should be reasonable quality components. I have not included bits and bobs, wires, connectors, heat shrink nuts bolts that sort of stuff.

To be honest a Phantom would be better for a stable aerial platform and be so much easier to get going. They are amazingly good at what they do. Anything you build wont be as good and will be a huge learning curve.

Please note that the above are just a few mins on Amazon and I can't guarantee it will all work together. To really build one yourself you will need to do lots of research and understand all the components and how they work together.

Best to read loads and put a component list together and post it here for people to comment on.

[orfordness]

Check out some of the 450 bundles:

http://rctimer.com/

http://www.droneshop.biz/

http://www.droneshop.biz/multirotors/quadcopters/f450-gps-quadcopter-self-build-kit.html

[Dave17]

Thanks for all the replys guys. And loads to look into again.

As for the comment above tho is a phamtom 3 really that much better than a self build? Ive had a look and tgere around the £450 mark which is reasonable if there that good... the phantom 4 is way out my price range currently tho

[iRobot]

As for the comment above tho is a phamtom 3 really that much better than a self build?

Yes,,,,, unless you have a self build equivalent (let's say a 450 size) with a good GPS, gopro, live fpv feed to a monitor/ground station,  built and set up really well,,,,, but it would cost you more than a phantom 3 standard. To build this setup would need multirotor knowledge and the skills to build and maybe even fix it 
For someone with no quad experience - buying a phantom for anything around 250 to 450£ you would be in the air with a really good camera ship, easy peasy to setup,  fly, learn lots with,  long flight times, live video with menu's at the touch of the screen, giving you information on height,  speed, position with maps,  and if set up correctly it will give you the safety to return back to your feet at the flick of a switch, straight out of the box !
I personally couldn't recommend one enough.

http://youtu.be/IyIFU51NULc

[Dave17]

So say i had £450 in my pocket now and could go argos to buy one now its worth it? And it wont run away like half the videos on youtube !  if i set it up as per the destructions...

And its 2x better than something i could build for half the price?  Can you still connect goggles and upgrade the gimble cam in the future to 4k too?

[malc]

no one has mentioned xugong pro v2 and it folds up.
and Happy New Year.
malc

[ched]

So say i had £450 in my pocket now and could go argos to buy one now its worth it? And it wont run away like half the videos on youtube !  if i set it up as per the destructions...

And its 2x better than something i could build for half the price?  Can you still connect goggles and upgrade the gimble cam in the future to 4k too?

Scan have refurbished Phantom3 standards here https://www.scan.co.uk/products/dji-phantom-3-standard-quadcopter-intuitive-drone-hd-720p-60-fhd-1080p-30-smart-features-(refurbishe £328.80.
Most of the fly aways are because people dont wait for a good gps lock. Then if they hit Return To Home, batty gets low or loose signal the Home position is some random place so the quad flies off.
I very much doubt you could build some think any where near as good for £450 (including transmitter, charger, HD cam etc) let alone £329!
As for goggles and 4K I am not sure.

[iRobot]

As above  set it up correctly and it won't fly back to China !
You wouldn't need to change the gimbal or camera, it's 2.7k as standard, and that's pretty darn good. I suppose if you are a professional photographer who wants 4k then you'd just buy something better than a phantom 3s to start with,,,, but trust me, the standard footage is top quality out of the box ! When you watch your flight videos back on a large screen TV it makes you realise the quality as aposed to cost 

I bought mine from scan in Bolton as its local, but the advertised 'refurb' at just over 300 isn't accurate  sales ploy to get you in the shop, they never seem to have them in stock,,,,, so I walked out with a brand new one  but at leased you know it's never even been out of the box and messed around with.

As for goggles, not worth bothering with on a phantom, I'd say they are more suited for fpv racing and freestyling 

Some nice features on the phantom also,,,, setupable in a matter of seconds - follow me, orbit mode, waypoints missions, pano pictures, just makes it fun fun fun.