WHICH? 3D Printer

[nate80]

Sorry if this appears slightly déjà vu.  I see that a question with similarities has been posted previously but I reckon, with such a costly investment, that I should start my own thread.   

I';ve been interested in 3D printing for a while and I'; think it may be time to take the plunge and get a desktop machine.  I know very little about it and I';m most definitely a newbie to everything 3D Printer related, but I do know what I';d like to do with one. 

I';d like to print parts for my multi-rotors, my own arty 3D designs for looking at, and the odd part for replacing broken items - like if I broke a piece of a Gundam model, or the hoover etc.

Remembering I am new to all this, I think I';d like:
1. an enclosed unit for less smells (and if I understand correctly, better printing?)
2. a heated flat bed
3. I';d like it to be able to print up to 20cm x 20cm 20cm if at all possible
4. It';d be great to have the option of 2 print nozzles, but that';s a bonus and not a necessity
5. I';d like to spend up to £300, but could possibly push to £500 if a machine was really worth it.

I have been looking around and have read a few good reviews about the the XYZ Printing da Vinci Junior that can be had for £250 odd.  But it only has a printing platform of 15cm x 15cm x 15cm.  And from what I';ve read 20cm does seem to be the figure you should aim for when buying a budget (but not the cheapest) desktop printer?

But to be honest I';m so new right now and ignorant as to what matters when it comes to buying a 3D printer than it easy to use, perfect for newb';s (no or little calibration needed) but also work well for intermediate users.

Thanks guys.

[LuMan]

Hi Nate. You must have read my mind, as I was thinking of almost exactly the same thing! I was thinking of a setup for about 500 quid, but not sure where to start...

I';ll keep an eye on this thread, but also add any info that I stumble across if I think it will be useful.

[Fletch]

How about this - https://www.think3dprint3d.com/3D-Printer-Kits/complete-3D-printer-kits/Kossel-Mini-3dPrinter-Kit

Build volume: cylindrical, 170mm diameter, 245mm height.

Footprint: triangle, 300 mm width.

Frame height: 650 mm.

but its not a Cartesian printer, its a Delta

I';ve just finished a Delta, which is essence is the same, but just scaled a little larger

[Hozza]

Hope this answers a few questions

Remembering I am new to all this, I think I';d like:
1. an enclosed unit for less smells (and if I understand correctly, better printing?) Yes it can help but is really only essential for ABS
2. a heated flat bed Definitely required
3. I';d like it to be able to print up to 20cm x 20cm 20cm if at all possible Tough to get enclosed printer with that build volume on your budget
4. It';d be great to have the option of 2 print nozzles, but that';s a bonus and not a necessity CTC 3D Printer
5. I';d like to spend up to £300, but could possibly push to £500 if a machine was really worth it. One word DELTA for print quality and speed, something like the https://www.think3dprint3d.com/3D-Printer-Kits/complete-3D-printer-kits/Kossel-Mini-3dPrinter-Kit

I have been looking around and have read a few good reviews about the the XYZ Printing da Vinci Junior I believe it only prints PLA

[trebor]

Don';t mind me watching but I would like one in the future, I know absolutely nothing yet only I keep looking.

[shawdreamer]

you';ll struggle to get a reliable build height over 180mm for under £500 if you include all your other requirements.

200x200 is pretty standard build platform so that wouldnt be an issue.
heated bed is also not a great issue as even a printer without as standard can be easily modified (I dont say that as a experienced printer owner, it really is something even a minimum skilled novice can add).
enclosure isnt a real issue either, even when using ABS, alsong as your printer location isnt somewhere that suffers with continually shifting room temperatures or is constantly cold (like a garage, shed of unheated workshop).

if you except the build height constrain of around 180mm (20mm less than what you wanted) you';ll find plenty of options that include near enough all your other requirements, even a handful that fall below your lower fund limit.

[Rommie]

The best starter printer I could recommend is a wanhao duplicator 4x, I started on one of these and I loved it, heated build platform, full enclosed and can pick them up between 300 and 500 quite easy. Delta printers are not something I would recommend for a beginner into 3D printing, I purely base that on issues I had and I had 12-18 month of printing experience.

[nate80]

Thanks for the info so far guys.      LuMan and trebor, cool to know there';s a growing number of us interested in 3D printing.  If you find out anything interesting or useful please share it here.   

It';s becoming increasingly more obvious to me that I know next to nothing about the wonderful world of 3D printers.  I';ve been reading up on PLA, ABS and PVA, and what their advantages and disadvantages are.  I see that I';ll definitely want a printer that can handle ABS (for strength and shock resistance), and most 3D printers that accept ABS will also run PLA.  PVA I';m still not sure about though.   I';ve not come across a cheap (sub £500) unit that supports PVA yet, but maybe I';ve missed it or just not looked around enough?  Other than providing support structure when using a dual headed 3D printer does it offer and must-have benefits?

Thanks for the linky Fletch.     Initially I was thinking about buying an off-the-shelf print ready unit with no need for calibration - just to save time.  But after spending some more time looking about I think I';d be happy to consider a build-it-yourself kit too.  The Kossel Mini Kit looks good.  The printing base diameter of 17cm seems slightly small, but the height it good and I guess you could print longer designs vertically rather than horizontally?  Wouldn';t the support be an issue though?  Like, wouldn';t it be easier to print a 20cm long flat frame horizontally rather than standing up vertically?

Hozza, that';s real helpful, thanks.     2 quick questions if I can mate...
Are CTC 3D Printers any good?  They appear really cheap considering everything they can do.  Too good to be true, or a real bargain?!?
And what';s DELTA?  Are they a manufacturer of parts that are very good quality or something?

Cheers to you too shawdreamer.     I';d be happy with a build height of 180mm if the length and width were 200mm.  I';m sure it';s easy enough to mod, but I';d rather buy a kit with a heated bed.  It seems the standard way to go, so shouldn';t be an issue I guess?  What model would you recommend that can achieve 200x200x180 and work with ABS + PLA?

I think I';m going to buy a book, like the Dummies guide, to try and learn a bit more about the basics of 3D printing.  Mist of the books seem largely geared up toward explaining about the current and future commercial uses of 3D printers, but it could still be of some help I suppose.

Edit:  Just saw your post Rommie and I';m being shouted at that ';dinner';s ready!';  I';m not complaining!  But I';ll have to check out the Wanhao duplicator 4x a little later.      

[DarkButterfly]

Yes CTC printers are good, they take quite a bit of time to set up, but once done prints are good quality and reliable.

[Rommie]

No worries buds, Cdc are box type printers(easy way to describe) and delta are like the mini Kossel, I have a similar printer to fletch about the same size too and mine is a Kossel xl

[shawdreamer]

Cheers to you too shawdreamer.     I';d be happy with a build height of 180mm if the length and width were 200mm.  I';m sure it';s easy enough to mod, but I';d rather buy a kit with a heated bed.  It seems the standard way to go, so shouldn';t be an issue I guess?  What model would you recommend that can achieve 200x200x180 and work with ABS + PLA?

hmmmm at the £300 mark you';ll need to make a compromise with either build size constraint or enclosure constraint if you want something with a good name and reputation

If you forgo an enclosed setup (which is something you can do without like I said above)

then a Wanhao Dup. i3 or even its cheaper cousin the Geeetech i3 (I owned a Geeetech for a fair amount of time and never had call to criticise considering its low cost, (Ive even ordered another due to arrive soon as a back-up printer)

If you forgo the 200x200 build size for something smaller but enclosed

then Makerbot Rep2, very consistent,dual extruder standard (iirc) surprisingly user friendly

at the £500 mark,

probably your best option that';ll cover all your requirements while being the most easiest to deal with as a noob would be a DaVinci

there pretty much a "take it out the box, plug it in, start printing" setup, fully enclosed, 200x200x200 heated build platform, only a single extruder though, at the risk of putting you off one Ive heard the extruder can be a bit of a pain to get at for rare maintenance but Ive heard alot more good about them than bad when it comes to people new to the 3d printing world.

for the best of both worlds (print size and enclosre) just go hillbilly style and get a wanhao i3 and a large plastic storage box flip it over and cut a hinged flap in its front ::)

[Hozza]

IF I was spending £500 or slightly more I';d build a Kossel XL similar to Rommie';s, oh wait second I am building one ::) just been a slow slow build that turned into a project for this winter as flying was more important.

CTC are pretty good as far as I understand it but need mods to make them print better (never owned or tried one)

Currently own a custom built Prusa i3 which is tuned to almost perfection, great design but getting dated and the electronics or so old and so 8bit  but it works but it';s so slow compared to what my Kossel XL build will manage to do.

3D printing is far from a plug and play technology, so expect to tinker a lot and pull loads of hair out, but I can say the i3 is a good starting printer.

[Hands0n]

I am in to just about my 3rd year with a Wanhao clone from Kolobus. It cost a shed load of money then (around £750) yet we see Wanhao badged for oodles cheaper these days (CTC is one or close as dammit from what I can see).

I went for the original plywood framed model, the Duplicator 4 (which is actually two nozzles).  And I have to say that it hasn';t missed a beat.   

Setting up was not terribly difficult, levelling the bed is the hardest part in my view. It took me a while to get that right in my head ...  I';ve not done more than occasionally tweak the adjusters where perhaps I';ve been a bit heavy handed removing a print.

I';ve worked exclusively in ABS for a couple of reasons - strength, thermal resistance and no nozzle jams like PLA seems to be famed for.  I';ve run all manner of cheap ABS filament through it and it hasn';t jammed once! 

Maintenance?  An occasional light wipe with 3inOne oil on a tissue does the trick. I visually check the belts and they';re just fine, still the originals and no visible evidence of wear and tear.

Print software? I use Makerware as it is dead simple to drag and drop any number of .STL that will fit on the print bed.  The original print software I got with the machine would not do that but I believe the later versions will allow you to manipulate the objects, duplicate them and move them around on the print bed.  But I';ve stuck with Makerware as its just so very simple to use. And not a print gone wrong because of it - when prints fail its generally been my fault.

Designs? Simple designs I rush up on TinkerCAD - an on-line site which is quite good, even if the designs need to be straightforward. I';m no CAD artist - mainly making up practical parts for various stuff.

Thingiverse is a superb site to grab ready made designs.  Some put the original files up so you can edit them to your own preference.

So a bit of a big world out there. But for a £300 - £500 budget I';d say that there is a lot of choice. I';d buy Wanhao Duplicator 4 machines again. I think they';re fabulous value.

[DarkButterfly]

I did have have to mod my CTC, like installing a glass bed, enclosing panels, wire chain for the X axis cables and moving the filament high up.








And a small selection of things I';ve designed and printed

Tricopter





GPS mount for the massive hex




More recently a fish tank overflow weir




Something I downloaded and printed

[shawdreamer]

Designs? Simple designs I rush up on TinkerCAD - an on-line site which is quite good, even if the designs need to be straightforward. I';m no CAD artist - mainly making up practical parts for various stuff.

like any software, its more of how you use it than how it appears.

I initially started designing using tinkercad with the mind to move onto more complex software.

it wasn';t till I did move onto said software that I realised its was surprisingly unnecessarily complex and I unerringly found myself returning to tinkercad repeatedly.

on first glance it looks incredibly simplistic and almost childish (afterall it uses the "building block" approach to design which means in many ways it is) but Ive found that depending on how you utilize its design features you can produce even the most complex designs and I often use it as a preferred tool during projects..... though its occassional server sloth fits can really p*ss you off.

[shawdreamer]

woohooooooooo hillybilly enclosure!

Ive got a massoof container waiting for the Geeetech to turn up ::)

[nate80]

Wow, there';s certainly a lot to learn about in the world of 3D printing.

Thanks so much for all the input so far guys.   

It';s clearly far more diy/hands on than I realised, but that hasn';t put me off at all.

Did anyone bother reading up on the subject before buying a machine, and if so can you recommend a good and useful book?  I';m considering buying one of the following three books about it:

http://www.bookdepository.com/3D-Printing-James-Floyd-Kelly/9780789752352?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base6&utm_source=UK&utm_content=3D-Printing&selectCurrency=GBP&w=AFC7AU9SBR6UL7A8ZT7N&pdg=kwd-104399158419:cmp-177155787:adg-15139031667:crv-44091921627:pid-9780789752352&gclid=CJ6jpt_Ch88CFcG4Gwod_JsI7w

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1118660757/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1VZDWMT535IFD&coliid=I2X72TXLCMC9NW

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1457182939/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1VZDWMT535IFD&coliid=I157P06V21IJCL


So it looks like there';s no one go-to brand or machine for the best budget 3D printer.  It';s cool that there';s so many different designs and units available but it means I';ll be taking a little longer than planned to make a decision about which one to go with.

For the uninitiated (like me) I';ve learned that there are 3 main types of 3D printer:

Delta - Generally tall tripod machines where the printer bed is fixed and the arms holding the print nozzle move up and down the vertical pillars in order to give the extruder the necessary movement.
Cartesian - Generally boxy printers (open and encased) where the flat bed moves up/down and forward/back whilst the print nozzle runs left/right across the top.  Printing certain shapes is more difficult due to the constant flat bed movement and the machines generally take up more desk space..
Polar - The daddy of 3D printers where the flat bed rotates whilst the print nozzle moves left/right and also up/down giving full 360 movement quickly and efficiently.  Machine';s can be small whilst printing big!

I like the looks of the Polar unit, but at $899 + import costs I think price will put me off of buying one!  Very cool though.   

[nate80]

Cheers DarkButterfly for all the excellent pics and info about your CTC machine.  That';s a nice looking bit of kit.  And I like your makeshift storage-box hood (hillbilly enclosure, as shawdreamer puts it lol)!

I was confused what was meant by the glass bed, but now I understand that it';s just a bespoke sheet of toughened glass laid onto the standard heated bed for better heat dispersion and print material adhesion.  Boro glass is meant to be very good apparently.

What are you using in the 3rd to last photo as flat bed adhesive?  I';ve read that masking tape, dried PVA glue and even prit-stick works well.

How did you fabricate the side panels?  Are they cut-to-fit sheets of standard acrylic?


Rommie, the Wanhao Duplicator 4s looks decent.  It gets plenty of love around the web.  Cheers for the heads up.  I think the newer one is the 4S.  I';ll take a proper look at that too.

[nate80]

Shawdreamer, Makerbot Rep2 Looks cool, but it seems to be about £1000?  I really like the simplicity of the DaVinci, but the single nozzle bugs me.  When I discovered 2 nozzles were great for using PVA';s and strengthening agents as well as secondary colours I was even more convinced a dual extruder unit would be better.


Thanks for the info Hozza.  The Kossel XL definitely gets good reviews.  Where did you buy yours from?


HandsOn, thanks for sharing all that useful information.  That';s really helpful.     As mentioned to Rommie, the Wanhao Duplicator 4 looks good.  That';s a number of people now who';s say start with that model.


Just as a side thought, it';s a bit confusing to newbies that so many of these machines are called similar names.  The Prusa i3 is by Reprap (I think), whereas Wanhao also make an i3.  So do a few other manufacturers.  And there are so many clones out there, and machines that look the same - but aren';t.  Plenty of pit-falls if you';re not careful.

[Hozza]

Sourced the bits from various locations, if you are really interested I can come up with a list of sites.

[Doug]

Sourced the bits from various locations, if you are really interested I can come up with a list of sites.

Mostly from me plus the odd other';s eh Paul.

I also Built Rommies and had a good hand in Fletches (some Printed Parts and lots of advice lol).

The CTC is effectivley the Same as the Wanhao Duplicator4 and for the £300 sort of mark you can';t really go wrong

see  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CTC-3D-Printer-Makerbot-Replicator-2-2-Extruders-1KG-ABS-or-PLA-filament-/271381955044.

The Wanhao I3 Clone is also very good and you can be printing with that in under an hour from opening the Box so I have been told.

The i3';s have a 200x200 bed that moves in the Y Axis whereas the CTC/Dup ones move the Bed in the Z axis anf the Nozzle I believe moves in both the X and Y axis which reduces the desk space a bit and makes it easier to box in but I believe they are enclosed anyway now.

The smallest footprint in terms of deskspace compared with print volume is the Delta you get a 300mm diam print surface printer in the same sort of deskspace of the CTC but they are higher any are more intricate to set up but once they are they are superb. I am now on with number4 which is going to be huge (600 diam bed with approx 800 build hight).

The downside with a delta is that the maths required within the firmware means you need to use modern 32 bit electronics on them and that costs more.

PS I started with an I3 Kit about 2 years ago and printed most of the parts that are on my current delta with it so they work very well once tuned.

As an aside where in the country are you?

Doug

[DarkButterfly]

Cheers DarkButterfly for all the excellent pics and info about your CTC machine.  That';s a nice looking bit of kit.  And I like your makeshift storage-box hood (hillbilly enclosure, as shawdreamer puts it lol)!

I was confused what was meant by the glass bed, but now I understand that it';s just a bespoke sheet of toughened glass laid onto the standard heated bed for better heat dispersion and print material adhesion.  Boro glass is meant to be very good apparently.

What are you using in the 3rd to last photo as flat bed adhesive?  I';ve read that masking tape, dried PVA glue and even prit-stick works well.

How did you fabricate the side panels?  Are they cut-to-fit sheets of standard acrylic?

When it comes to making enclosure, (or airframes) I';m not just frugal, I';m downright cheap and will not waste time making a box if I already have one to fit

I had some acrylic sheets left over form another project, so I cut them to fit, but they are standard acrylic.
The adhesive I use on glass is super hold hairspray.

Hopefully this helps

[shawdreamer]

Shawdreamer, Makerbot Rep2 Looks cool, but it seems to be about £1000?  I really like the simplicity of the DaVinci, but the single nozzle bugs me.  When I discovered 2 nozzles were great for using PVA';s and strengthening agents as well as secondary colours I was even more convinced a dual extruder unit would be better.

sorry I was referring to the clones which are generally just as good as the original

Just as a side thought, it';s a bit confusing to newbies that so many of these machines are called similar names.  The Prusa i3 is by Reprap (I think), whereas Wanhao also make an i3.  So do a few other manufacturers.  And there are so many clones out there, and machines that look the same - but aren';t.  Plenty of pit-falls if you';re not careful.

aye it can be a bit confusing, just look at it as each maker coming up with their own twist on the same model, which is basically what it is.

Each version has sometimes minor differences in design which generally set it apart from other similar models, the Geeetech Prusa i3 Pro B I just bought and built today is a good example of what I mean, visually it appears to be almost exactly the same as many other Prusa i3 models but many of the parts used on it are redesigned all metal as appose to the plastic or printed parts used on many others.

[Hands0n]

like any software, its more of how you use it than how it appears.

I initially started designing using tinkercad with the mind to move onto more complex software.

it wasn';t till I did move onto said software that I realised its was surprisingly unnecessarily complex and I unerringly found myself returning to tinkercad repeatedly.

on first glance it looks incredibly simplistic and almost childish (afterall it uses the "building block" approach to design which means in many ways it is) but Ive found that depending on how you utilize its design features you can produce even the most complex designs and I often use it as a preferred tool during projects..... though its occassional server sloth fits can really p*ss you off.

Hmmm, I think that upon reflection I was perhaps a bit unkind to TinkerCAD.  ::)

As you rightly say, it is surprisingly flexible and I have made a couple of complex designs myself also.  Its just a matter of getting your head around how to combine various shapes and holes to come up with the whole thing.   

But yeah, I';d agree with you wholeheartedly, its a rather fabulous tool.  More so that you can stop your work, shut down the browser, go off somewhere else and pick up again from where you left off.  I';ve even done some sneaky edits at work in a spare browser tab  

I have recommended TinkerCAD before to people who';ve never done design work.  The great feature is to be able to visualise your design in the 3D viewer where you can see how the design is going to come out.   

[Hozza]

Nate80

First thing you have ask yourself is do you want it to work out of the box,  Require minimal assembly, a printer in kit forum taking several hours of building or going totally custom and sourcing the parts required?

Answer that and we can point you in the direction of your choosing.

[trebor]

Are there restrictions depending on what type of unit get ? Some have moving tables, static tables, the Delta type seem totally different to the rest. Have they any advantages ?

[shawdreamer]

Are there restrictions depending on what type of unit get ? Some have moving tables, static tables, the Delta type seem totally different to the rest. Have they any advantages ?

I wouldn';t term it as "restriction" as such, to a certain degree each type excels at certain print types, for example kossel types are superior to Mendel types when it comes to building taller prints while maintaining quality whiles Mendel types are often better at building large footprint designs.

Its probably more about personal preference when choosing what printer is best for yourself, Mendel types are often the preferred printer for a newcomer as there easier to setup and get calibrated with limited experience which means you can often get printing quicker, kossels print better quality but require alot more experience, time, calibration and general effort to get them to do so consistently which means a much larger learning curve for a newcomer.

The reason you see so many variations on the Prusa and similar is due to their ease of setup and use.

[muddy]

have a look at Hobbykings Malyan 150 I have one cheap Wanhoa clone, cheap as chips and prints very well plus UK warehouse so no problems with warranty.

[nate80]

 

Sourced the bits from various locations, if you are really interested I can come up with a list of sites.

Ok, cheers very much Hozza.  I';m not sure yet, but if I do decide to go with a Kossel I';ll let you know.   

Nate80

First thing you have ask yourself is do you want it to work out of the box,  Require minimal assembly, a printer in kit forum taking several hours of building or going totally custom and sourcing the parts required?

Answer that and we can point you in the direction of your choosing.

I';m not completely sure yet, that';s what I';m here for - to work that out.      It';s a bit tricky as I';d guess (as with most things) if you want ease and productivity it';ll cost lots of conga, so a budget ready to use 3D printer will probably offer less features etc.

I';m great with building stuff and fine with performing basic electronics, and I';m good with computers, so I';m happy to buy bits and build it - as long as it';s guaranteed to work when it';s all put together and calibrated!    

I';m still trying to figure out what style of 3D printer is best for my needs.

[nate80]

Mostly from me plus the odd other';s eh Paul.

I also Built Rommies and had a good hand in Fletches (some Printed Parts and lots of advice lol).

The CTC is effectivley the Same as the Wanhao Duplicator4 and for the £300 sort of mark you can';t really go wrong

see  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CTC-3D-Printer-Makerbot-Replicator-2-2-Extruders-1KG-ABS-or-PLA-filament-/271381955044.

The Wanhao I3 Clone is also very good and you can be printing with that in under an hour from opening the Box so I have been told.

The i3';s have a 200x200 bed that moves in the Y Axis whereas the CTC/Dup ones move the Bed in the Z axis anf the Nozzle I believe moves in both the X and Y axis which reduces the desk space a bit and makes it easier to box in but I believe they are enclosed anyway now.

The smallest footprint in terms of deskspace compared with print volume is the Delta you get a 300mm diam print surface printer in the same sort of deskspace of the CTC but they are higher any are more intricate to set up but once they are they are superb. I am now on with number4 which is going to be huge (600 diam bed with approx 800 build hight).

The downside with a delta is that the maths required within the firmware means you need to use modern 32 bit electronics on them and that costs more.

PS I started with an I3 Kit about 2 years ago and printed most of the parts that are on my current delta with it so they work very well once tuned.

As an aside where in the country are you?

Doug

Thanks for the advice and info Doug.  Much appreciated.   

I';m based in Surrey, near Walton on Thames. 

I like the fact the Delta has a smaller footprint (as the machine would live on my already overcrowded desk), but I';m not sure I properly understand how to print a horizontal item on it.  If the printer bed diameter is 170mm, but you wanted to print a 200mm long section of a multi-copter frame, it';d need to be printed standing upright.  But let';s say it has a constant thickness of 3mm.  How would that print stood upright without falling over?  Would you have to print support struts too?  And if so, wouldn';t that be a frequent pain as it wastes so much print material?

Cheers