KK doesn't like me .... at all

[XH558]

I gave up on the old Black KK board as I couldn';t make it play ball and finally coughed up and went to DJI Naza where I';ve had huge success ....

So I thought - Iet';s have another crack with a simple quadcopter and the old black board - then I broke it ..... so let';s go for the newer V2.0 board.....

Well the board arrived today and got it all connected up but I';m damned if I can make it work properly 

I';ve been on YT and followed people';s set ups line by line - copied their settings - but on the first attempt at a take off the 2 right props went berserk and it flipped over at speed and broke 2 props ...

Keep calm - fix the props - go through it all again ...

Yes - the receiver orientation is right - everything is spinning the right way - the calibrations are all ok - .... but I can';t get props 2 and 4 to react anything like 1 and 3 do ... in fact 3 is just spinning like a dervish most of the time and I can hardly get 4 to react at all   

I';ve been over it and over it till I';m sick of it .....   

I';m thinking of ';Factory reset'; and start again from scratch 

Toss pot things ... give me Naza any day 

[shaktar]

The only thing i can see that is different to mine is order of the esc to the board. 

Top left First then
Top right Second
Bottom Right Third
Bottom Left Forth

I had the two mixed up when i first did it  and it went crazy.

[XH558]

Help falling over itself in its clamour to get to me I see 

Well I have continued fettling and in the spirit of nothing ventured etc I thought if one esc in one position is not happy lets see if it';s an individual esc problem by switching them round - then if the problem moves we know ....

So I switched 3 & 4 and for good measure 1& 2 ... then recalibrated the escs and things definitely improved  - we got all 4 rotors going and a sort of stability held in one hand.

I also managed to get the ';auto level'; function on.... and all the motors doing what they';re supposed to when asked...

So then I started looking at YT videos about set up and tried to understand what ';P';s and ';I';s are... one chap reckons you reduce the factory set ';P';s down a bit and reduce the ';I';s to zero .... this may induce some oscillation as the throttle goes up - which it does .... but I managed to get a sort of hover at about 2 feet for several nano seconds :) All I have to do now is work out what the hell a ';P'; and an ';I'; are - what they do and how to use them

I';ve stopped now as I am out of patience .... but we have progress 

More tomorrow 

[teslahed]

What version of firmware is running on your KK2? There was a bug fix recently that may improve things for you if you haven';t tried updating yet. Apparently the guy who wrote the firmware tested the early versions with SimonK flashed electronic speed controllers - people running standard / cheapo ESCs without modifications had problems as a result. Which i think they resolved by reducing the P and I settings (or by updating the firmware).

You might be making your life harder using 3 bladed props though. I haven';t seen anyone successfully use those on a quadcopter before. If they do work well for you I';ll be interested to hear. 

[XH558]

Questions questions ...

Well I haven';t got a clue about what firmware is on it  .... I ordered the board from HK - it came - I fitted it ......that';s all I know - I';ll have a look tomorrow - I see there is V1.5 on Lazy Zero - could be I need that...

See there you go with the ';P';s and ';I';s ... what are these blighters and what do they do 

Mmmm 3 bladed props was a whim and was all I had 4 of... I';ll root around and see if I can find a set of 2 bladers in my workshop but I don';t think so ....

More fettling needed .....

[teslahed]

P = Proportional. The strength of the gyro';s response will be proportional to the error and the strength of the p value. More P means stronger gyro response and better stability up to the point you overshoot and get feedback oscillations.

I = Integral. The strength of the response is proportional to the amount of time the error is present based on the I value. More I means the correction is averaged out over more time for smoother flight, but it will be slower to respond to changes.

D = Derivative. Which is the prediction of future errors, based on current rate of change. A higher D value means smoother flight but slower laggier response to control inputs.

This is a very rough guide - I';ve looked using google and haven';t found anything nice and simple that applies specifically to multirotors so if anyone spots any errors with the info above, please let me know!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

[XH558]

Bit of an update

Last week I managed to get a Spektrum DX6i really cheap in a sale at Robotbirds and decided that my quads would go on that and my planks stay on the other older home converted JR TX.

So - when it arrived -  I then discovered that my 2.4ghz FRSKY RXs that I use on my converted JR TX don';t want to talk to the DX6i   
Out of my depth here but it';s something to do with DSM2 whatever that is 

So.... I hadn';t budgeted on replacing RXs too 

I had to find 2 cheap DSM2 compatible RXs and went for the Orange 6 channel ones from HK http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11965__OrangeRx_R610_Spektrum_DSM2_6Ch_2_4Ghz_Receiver_w_Sat_Port_.html

So last night was the evening to sit down and learn how to use the DX6i and bind it to the new Orange RXs - which I did (ish) - then the painful process of moving the Hex and the Quad over to DX6i with all that that entails with settings etc

Then the bit that sounds like I know what I';m doing ... after the comments here I reflashed the V2 board with the newer V1.5 firmware from KapteinKuk (KK) which I did through Lazy Zero 
Apparently the original KK2 firmware had some weird SimonK esc firmware on that messes things up.

So now we';re back with all the settings at stock and with a new TX & RX ..... so off we go again messing about with each menu setting on the board (which is now different) and sorting out the ';P';s and the ';I';s etc etc

Indications after reflashing are pretty good  - all 4 props started together and seem to be responding ok - although I do have some oscillation (hand held not flown) which is where the ';P';s and the ';I';s come in apparently 

I am a little confused with the esc calibration on this board - you have to turn on the TX - set the throttle to full - hold the 1 & 4 buttons down on the board and connect the battery (you need 3 hands here    ) - then the beeping starts - but what';s not clear is how long to listen to the beeps before you stop holding the buttons down - there';s no definitive answer - there is a pattern in the beeps that repeats so I wonder if it';s after the first set as it were. Also someone said to pull the throttle down after the beeps whilst still holding the buttons - but what';s the ACTUAL procedure 

It';s not as easy as Naza I know that 

[Balders]

Hiya, I';ve only got a minute, so excuse the quick nature of the reply.

The stock PID settings after a V1.5 flash seem just about right for my basic quad.  The original firmware goes bonkers because it was set on simonk flashed esc';s but 1.5 assumes "standard" esc';s and works like a charm.

Yes, the esc throttle calibration is deliberately tricky to stop you doing it accidentally.  You can just about do it on your own but much easier if you get someone to hold 1&4 for you.

As to how long to hold throttle up, it';s only very short time.  Throttle up, power on with 1&4, probably get three beeps, throttle straight down.  More beeps, this time sounding like it normally does on power up. The most common mistake people make is keeping throttle up too long, which will put the esc';s into programming mode, which can cause all sorts of fun.

Hope you get it figured out, love my little KK2 quad (and also tricopter).

Next thing is to set your self level...again V1.5 really gets it snapping level...it';s very impressive for such a cheap board.

[XH558]

Hiya, I';ve only got a minute, so excuse the quick nature of the reply.

The stock PID settings after a V1.5 flash seem just about right for my basic quad.  The original firmware goes bonkers because it was set on simonk flashed esc';s but 1.5 assumes "standard" esc';s and works like a charm.

Yes, the esc throttle calibration is deliberately tricky to stop you doing it accidentally.  You can just about do it on your own but much easier if you get someone to hold 1&4 for you.

As to how long to hold throttle up, it';s only very short time.  Throttle up, power on with 1&4, probably get three beeps, throttle straight down.  More beeps, this time sounding like it normally does on power up. The most common mistake people make is keeping throttle up too long, which will put the esc';s into programming mode, which can cause all sorts of fun.

Hope you get it figured out, love my little KK2 quad (and also tricopter).

Next thing is to set your self level...again V1.5 really gets it snapping level...it';s very impressive for such a cheap board.

REALLY helpful - thanks 

OOoopppss - in red - that';s probably me then - no one tells you how long ...so you wait for all these beeps - first sets of one, then 2 etc - so I';ve probably held it too long at the first shout as I thought it might go ....set of 1 beeps = esc 1 .... set  of 2 beeps = esc 2  etc etc .... 

How do I check if that';s bu**ered stuff??   Worried now that I';ve set myself back 4 escs 

[Balders]

You cannot bugger your esc';s by going into programming mode.  You can always just re-program them if needs be.  Worst you could have done is maybe set the timing to a different mode, and maybe turned the brake on, which is probably pretty unlikely.

I would suggest you either get hold of the manual for your esc';s, which will give you the beep codes in sequence so you can have a listen and jot down how it';s currently set, alternatively (depending on the make/model of esc';s) you can buy a very cheap programming card which means you don';t have to go through all the stick up, stick down rubbish to program it step by step.

[XH558]

Never programmed an esc ... mine are cheap Mystery Cloud 30A

I think this is them http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uploads/836379618X44143X22.pdf

So what am I listening for at calibration 

[teslahed]

I found an alternative version of the instruction manual that gives slightly different instructions;

http://www.rc-super.com/download/mysteryCloudESC_20A30A.pdf

I found it on this ebay auction which looks to be the same as your ESCs;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mystery-Cloud-Pentium-30A-Electric-Speed-Controller-ESC-heli-plane-BEC-/200655344424

If you look at the ';beep menu'; as described in the instruction manual I';ve linked to it';s a fair bit simpler than the one in yours - with only 3 options. Turning on with the throttle set to maximum will put the ESC into programming mode. After the starting tone it will beep through the sequence. If you look at the table the ';music'; is written symbolically;

-,- = Beep, pause, beep
(to select LIPO cells for low voltage cut of)
--,-- = beep beep, pause, beep beep
(to select NiMh cells to disable low voltage cut off - you want to use this option)
---,--- = beep beep beep, pause, beep beep beep
(turns the brake on and of - it';s off by default which is what you want)

You throttle down approximately half way through the beep sequence associated with the function you want to enable or disable to select or deselect that option. Aim for the pause between the beeps if you want a target - i do.

I';ve cheated by explaining the manual i found - the manual you';ve spotted has many more options in the menu system and looks a lot more complicated. The system works the same way though.

Let me know if I';ve missed anything, it';s not exactly a user friendly system!

[XH558]

You can';t press ';Thank you'; more than once... but I wanted to ...

Those are the very escs - how clever to find them  ... why didn';t I think of that

Thank you so much that REALLY helps - you and Balders 

I shall have to shut myself away in the man cave and try and get this sorted ... it looks and sounds so complicated but I suppose it';s not really .... just time and patience 

I have to say I didn';t really understand what I was doing when I was ';calibrating'; the escs ... I just pressed the buttons and listened to some beeps not knowing what the heck it was all about ... :embarrassed :embarrassed

Why didn';t i take up embroidery 

[teslahed]

You';re very welcome.

You do have one other option though. I just had a quick look at the rctimer thread on the simonK firmware;

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20628893&postcount=1872
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhR02IDNb7_MdEhfVjk3MkRHVzhKdjU1YzdBQkZZRlE#gid=0

According to the post and the spreadsheet I';ve linked to it';s entirely possible to flash your cheap mystery cloud ESCs with the simonK firmware - not only that, but they aren';t all bad in terms of specification either, after the firmware is upgraded. That would remove all programming options and set the defaults to the best options possible for flying multicopters - so you wouldn';t have to worry about anything except throttle calibration. And you get the improved response rates for higher gyro settings and the removal of the throttle smoothing effect that works so well on prop planes and so poorly on multicopters. If you are building the quadcopter for fun flying then i can';t recommend the simonK firmware strongly enough - it just ';feels'; better.

It';s not much harder to flash an ESC than it is to flash your KK2 - you just need the special hobbyking tool;

www.hobbyking.com/buddy.asp?code=6F1B7FD9-0F1D-4A65-98BB-A48F1282B2D3 (buddy code for reduced price)

Or I could lend you mine for a few days, after christmas probably as i will be needing it in the next week. Or you could post me your ESCs and I would flash them for you.

[XH558]

Thanks for that - looks like a useful tool so I used your link and bought one  ::)

If I can successfully flash a KK board I can flash an esc  I think 

we';ll see when it arrives ... I';ll come a knockin'; again then   

PS didn';t understand this at all
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20628893&postcount=1872
Is that Swahili or Urdu 

[teslahed]

PS didn';t understand this at all
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20628893&postcount=1872
Is that Swahili or Urdu 

I';ll try and give translating a go, just for fun;

One more ESC tested (IIRC info on google sheet is incomplete, so maybe add info about external osc and flash?) - Mystery Cloud 30A. Bought from ebay (note - picture shows Pentium, but You get Cloud). External osc, no pads (but easy to solder). Double heatsink (both sides with heatsink, after flashing i left only one - no need for BEC anyway). Used tp.hex. Flashed 5, all working OK so far (only tested on ground).
EDIT: tested in air on quad (holding in hand) - one motor sometimes stops for second, then restarts. I think, for quad that would be deadly - it would flip over.
EDIT again: swapped "buggy" ESC (i ordered 5, needed 4), so far - no problems. Looks like problem with ESC, but appears rarely.

I';ve just finished testing the mystery cloud 30A Electronic Speed Controllers (If I Remember Correctly the information on the google excel spreadsheet database is incomplete, so maybe add more information about the external oscillator and the method used to flash the ESC if possible?) I bought it from ebay (note the picture shows the Pentium speed controller but you get the cloud).
It comes with external oscillators and no soldering pads, but it';s easier than some to solder to if you want to try. It has a double heatsink which means that both sides of the ESC are covered by a heatsink, but after flashing i left only one of the two heatsinks in place. The other one covers the BEC circuitry rather than the MOSFETs and wasn';t needed anyway).
I flashed it using the tp.hex firmware. I flashed 5 of them, all seem to be working fine but have only been tested on the ground so far.
Update; I';ve tested the quadcopter in the air by holding it in my hand - one motor sometimes stops for a second, then restarts. I think this would be disastrous for a quadcopter in mid flight as it would flip over and crash.
Update no 2; I swapped out one of the 5 electronic speed controllers, it seemed to be faulty. The other 4 work fine so far, no problems at all. It looks like there was an intermittent fault on the 5th speed controller.

There were a lot of acronyms and abbreviations in there. That took longer than i thought.

[XH558]

Aha - not Swahili OR Urdu then .... just jibberish

[XH558]

Ok - serious now - I';ve done a lot of homework and it seems I have some more learning to do and some more questions ....
The picture of my ESCs copied from that spreadsheet shows 6 very helpfully coded white wires attached to 6 ';places';
OK - I can probably follow that - it';s a picture 


But - which wire goes to which ';place'; 

Homework tells me I have to find and connect ...

MOSI  VCC  GRND  RST  MISO  SCK

According to homework this seems to be standard nomenclature in a Serial Peripheral Interface Bus 

These have to be... (A) Identified on the my ESC (I can see their locations but not which is which)
& then  (B) connected correctly to pins on the USB thingy 

That brings me neatly to the next question - the thing I';ve just ordered - the USB thing seems to have a neat doo hicky on it';s business end that is supposed to sit directly on a chip ... is the order of the day to surgically remove this doo hicky ....and what will I find when I remove it - I suspect not 6 neatly labelled pins 
Is that the doo hicky bit having been removed in the bottom left of the above picture??

If that is the case how does one tell which one of the pins relates to the six connected to the ESC and in what order??

I';ve found this - http://wiki.openpilot.org/display/Doc/Flashing+Instructions which looks very useful  - which bits of this may be pertinent to the removed doo hicky thing ??

The soldering and surgery is not a problem - I can do all that - it';s the correct identification that may be the sticky bit especially on the ESC.

There';s then plenty of help on YT about the flashing bit and beeps etc once the soldering is done.

Standing by 

[Gaza07]

Hi XH558 have you ordered the flashing tool that Chris linked to earlier in the thread ? if you have then you dont need to do any of the wiring just wait for the tool plug it in to the programmer and hold it over the chip all connections are then made, just set the program for the right firmware and your set to go 

Also when you do flash esc';s you can enable the chips boot loader which allows future updates through the esc servo lead using a turnigy linker 

[teslahed]

Yeah that';s what i was getting at Gary, thanks.

The flashing tool takes out a lot of the risk involved with fine soldering tiny wires to point on the ESC and legs on the ATMEL chip itself. If you look at the size of the points you need to solder to - well I';m not convinced I could do all 4 ESCs 100% of the time myself without destroying one through cack-handedness. If you are a soldering master then i apologise - i should have asked first really to save you the $20 - although if you feel confident that you can solder to those points directly then you are doing very well!

The other end of the cable supplied with the flashing tool should just plug straight into your USBasp programmer you used to flash the KK2 board with. If it doesn';t we';ll have to look up the pin outs for that end to get the Live, Ground, MOSI, MISO (etc.) wires contacting the right pins of the USBasp programmer - a bit of a fiddle but not that hard. If you get it wrong the ESC just doesn';t flash - don';t think you will break them.

The other reason the flashing tool i recommended is quite good is that there are a whole bunch of different ESCs and other devices used in RC that make use of the same ATMEL chip - you can flash any of them now exactly the same way without risking fiddly soldering, assuming someone has written some improved firmware for you to flash with.

[XH558]

Aha - so the bloke who flashed my ESC in the picture with the white wires above hadn';t got the USB thing with the doo hicky on it - is that right 

I see that the doo hicky has 6 gold pins in various places that therefore are aligned to touch the 6 relevant legs of the ATMEL - is that right??



Seems easy enough 

[teslahed]

Both exactly right - and it is pretty straight forward, especially after the first one.

The plug lines up nicely with the chip and it';s legs - it';s a good fit. Which is fortunate because i don';t like to think about what would happen if you let go of the ESC and programmer half way through the ESC being flashed. Maybe you could redo it - or maybe your ESC would be dead. So make sure you have a firm grip before you press flash!

[Gaza07]

When I';m flashing esc';s I tend to press them onto a piece of blu-tak it stops them slipping around or tipping over 

[XH558]

My god I think I might just understand this 

Good tip Gaza - this just gets easier and easier