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Author Topic: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.  (Read 205 times)

Offline m4inbrain

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Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« on: July 08, 2018, 16:29:37 »
Hey there,

as the title says, i'm new to quads. I do have a tiny whoop (LDARC), but for outdoors, it doesn't work for me - and indoors i just don't have enough space to enjoy it. So i decided to build a 3" quad, sub 250g - i have build a quad before (a 250 racer, i think ZMR250 it was called - never flew it), so i'm not entirely new to the process. That was a million years ago though, a lot of things have changed in regards to FC, motors, props etc, and i'm just not up to date.

Lets start with what i've decided on, and what i'm looking for overall.

.. well. I haven't actually decided on anything, but i do like the Jalapura 3" frame. I haven't actually flown a quad outdoors yet, with space to actually fly patterns etc - that frame looks plenty sturdy, so that'd help. That's pretty much it though.

In regards to what i'm looking for, well it has to be sub 250g, maybe later down the line i go bigger and register it but for learning, that'll do. It's supposed to be a "sightseeing quad", as in, not a racer or 3d copter. I just want to enjoy FPV going up and down our local rugby field, basically "being a bird", no idea how to describe it better. Basically, i won't leave angle mode ever - except maybe to try horizon mode once. Flight time, i'd want 4-6 minutes roughly on 3s, no need to run 4s because i won't anyway (again, speed and acro not an issue yet). FPV gear, well, i'd love to use a runcam split 2/split mini, so that'd be bonus. I do have (rudimentary) goggles (EV800D), and my trusty Qx7.

Any suggestions for FC, motors, or an entirely different frame?

Cheers

Offline ched999uk

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 16:46:12 »
Have a look at these 2 builds:

http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=22922.0- Japalura 3 inch

or

http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=22896.0 - Vandal 3 inch

Both these builds are using great components and fly very well.

Offline mo_miah

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 16:49:51 »
If you're not going to use the quad to its full potential ever as you said you're going to stick to 3s and angle mode.
I'd recommend a toy grade quad in all honesty. There's plenty of decent ones these days and they wont hurt your wallet.

Or as you have a qx7 get some sim time and give acro a go. You just might like it

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2018, 16:50:38 »
Cheers, gonna dig through both threads - the Japalura thread especially, didn't even know that there's 4 in 1 FCs.

Guess i'll have to look that one up too.

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2018, 16:54:21 »
If you're not going to use the quad to its full potential ever as you said you're going to stick to 3s and angle mode.
I'd recommend a toy grade quad in all honesty. There's plenty of decent ones these days and they wont hurt your wallet.

Or as you have a qx7 get some sim time and give acro a go. You just might like it

The problem with toy grade is that if the bug bites me for some reason, i can ramp a properly built quad up. But, and i'm not being ironic here, if you know decent ones - feel free to suggest those. The only 3inch quad that spiked my interest a little bit was the Babyhawk R 3inch, and that's a bit of a handful.

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 17:00:29 »
Ok some thoughts -
Firstly don’t be afraid if 250s/5 inch
Micro quads (3 inch) are very agile, they do not lend themselves well to the way you are describing flying them.

A 5 inch quad will do what you are describing nice and easily on 3 cell.
Registration (when it comes in) is not gonna be terribly arduous.

That said, assuming you don’t want a HD cam recording the japalura would be my suggestion, it is heavy but this gives it momentum and less agile.

If you take the jap build above ched referenced and strip out the runcam split, add something like a predetor, you should be fine

Alternately, since you are stripping out the split you could ditch the F.C. and the vtx too and use a hglrc xjb stack

All that said I would still suggest not worrying about the 250 gram thing, build a decent 5 inch freestyle quad, it should do what you want on 3s and if the bug bites put a 4s lipo in and you are away

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2018, 17:06:54 »
I'm not necessarily afraid of 5 inch, it's more that i'm a bit miffed by the registration (which i assume won't be free either), and in my mind, they're less durable (due to more weight). And of course more expensive (all in all).

I do want an HD cam, that's why i was stating that i'd love to use the split/mini 2, i don't need fancy stabilised etc video but HD footage would be great. I don't intend to buy a gopro though. I think i still have one of the first Runcams even that i bought for the other quad that never flew.

Hm.. I guess going 5 inch and not shaving every last gram off of it does make it a more relaxed hunt. What are some well known "general purpose" frames there, then? I honestly have no idea, just spent the last two days trying to figure out a 3" frame.

edit: just saw that you're the guy who built those two linked quads - how do you like the Sunrise Siskin thing? What's the ups and downs of a 4in1? I do find it rather convenient, but there has to be a downside otherwise everyone would offer them?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 17:14:40 by m4inbrain »

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2018, 18:19:10 »
I'm not necessarily afraid of 5 inch, it's more that i'm a bit miffed by the registration (which i assume won't be free either), and in my mind, they're less durable (due to more weight). And of course more expensive (all in all).
Afraid is the wrong word, sorry I meant put off from. There is a reason why 5 inch are so popular
Quote
I do want an HD cam, that's why i was stating that i'd love to use the split/mini 2, i don't need fancy stabilised etc video but HD footage would be great. I don't intend to buy a gopro though. I think i still have one of the first Runcams even that i bought for the other quad that never flew.

The split is pretty horrible to fly with, latency is massively annoying, it is also to keep the weight down when you have even a split onboard but flying 3s it is definitely doable on 3 inch
The Chinese are starting to produce reasonable micro cams like gopro sessions but smaller, not quite there yet but look at sq12 and Hawkeye firefly
Quote
Hm.. I guess going 5 inch and not shaving every last gram off of it does make it a more relaxed hunt. What are some well known "general purpose" frames there, then? I honestly have no idea, just spent the last two days trying to figure out a 3" frame.
On 5 inch, look for box body with top mount lipo, classics would be qav210 (you can get Chinese clones for about 25quid), reverb 5 inch or chameleon 5 inch.
These are all very durable frames, you are unlikely to break flying the way you describe, and the chameleon has a warranty
Quote
edit: just saw that you're the guy who built those two linked quads - how do you like the Sunrise Siskin thing? What's the ups and downs of a 4in1? I do find it rather convenient, but there has to be a downside otherwise everyone would offer them?
I also use the Siskin in a 5inch racer.
It is a compact board.
General downsides of that aio sort of thing is you are running your main power through the same board as your osd, you will always get some interference to a greater or lesser degree.
If you blow something (most commonly an esc) you have to replace the whole board (not done that on a Siskin but I have blown 2 asguard aio ESCs)
Space is a premium, pads are always small  and difficult to solder(particularly on the Siskin) and frequently not many uarts are exposed (the Siskin, other than rx, only has one uart exposed and it is a swine to solder to, I use it for the split control on the jap and tbs crossfire on the racer)

As a result, of the last one I would say for what you want, again, go 5 inch and built with a separate fc

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2018, 18:45:38 »
Cheers for that explanation, already had a look at frames.

Not sure how people react to this here, but yeah, guess i'll go with a chinese knockoff for starters (kinda no point in throwing £100 at the first frame, at least not to me). I actually did look at the QAV210, and i love it - just that the price tag is quite steep. I'll have a lookout for a used one, otherwise i'll go with either a Martian, Puda or Dragon HX5.

I actually am surprised about the lag/latency on a runcam split, allegedly (i can only go by what youtubers say, obviously) it doesn't have any. Doesn't bother me much, still not going to buy a gopro, but maybe a runcam 2 hd, would need to read into those - the sq12 and hawkeye.. Those are not there yet, as you said. Also need to check CMOS/CCD cams then.

Slowly getting there, now to figure out what FC to get next - since i haven't any experiences yet, i can't go wrong with something betaflight rather than kiss. Just need to figure out which ones come with MPU6000 instead of MPU6500, and bob's your uncle.

Motors/props.. Well. Gotta check what's the most "agrarian" combo, hehe.

Thanks for the info.

edit: are there any heavily recommended fc stacks, something like the emax f4 magnum v2?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 19:20:49 by m4inbrain »

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 12:39:40 »
Okay, here's where i'm at after googling and looking around on my own for a little bit.

Here's what i "decided" on for now.

Frame:  TransTEC Frog Lite 218mm
ESC:     DalRC Engine 40A
Motors: Emax RS2205S 2300KV
Props:   Gemfan 5030/5040
FC:       MATEK F405 CTR
VTX:     Eachine VTX03 Super Mini
RX:      FrSky R-XSR

Haven't checked LiPos yet, but it's supposed to run 3S for a while, having the option to go 4S once i figure out the flying thing. Anything missing?

Does this work, and if not, why? What would you change and why?

So many whys, because i'm trying to actually learn something, it's kinda hard to read up on everything at once.

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 14:28:33 »
Frame is a china special, no UK suppliers, I suspect cheap carbon and I am dubious the aluminium is 7075
Really don’t like.

ESCs fine

Motors are dated, personally I never liked, but some did, be very wary of getting poor clones, particularly from Chinese online shops or dropships of them

Props: there are better but if you are new, fine

No arguement with F.C.
Vtx would prefer unify, just better
No cam yet? Then you don’t need vtx
If you have fpv I would use xm+ rather than r-XSR - better track record, you don’t need all that telemetry

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 14:49:09 »
Yeah the frame is a china special, but i'd disagree with cheap carbon - i watched UAVfutures crash it multiple times, it's pretty bombproof (reason why i chose it). Not the prettiest of frames, but spares are cheap too. Carbon is 3K, arms are 4mm. The aluminium i don't know though. It's not set in stone, i'm still looking.

I won't argue motors, i actually thought they're decent - if there's better alternatives nowadays, i'll go back to googling. Thought they were decent "midrange" motors.

Camera i actually just forgot and haven't looked into it because of that, but will most likely end up with either a Runcam Swift 2, Eagle 2 or a Foxeer Predator, if my google-fu serves me right.

Well fair enough, gotta check for another decent frame possibly, another vtx, different motors and maybe props (although they were suggested for beginners, that's the reason behind it).

Cheers.

edit: slightly different approach.

What do you guys think of the Eachine Wizard TS215, Furibee Stormer 220, DarkMax 220? These kinda things?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 15:09:14 by m4inbrain »

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 15:13:15 »
Yeah the frame is a china special, but i'd disagree with cheap carbon - i watched UAVfutures crash it multiple times, it's pretty bombproof (reason why i chose it). Not the prettiest of frames, but spares are cheap too. Carbon is 3K, arms are 4mm. The aluminium i don't know though. It's not set in stone, i'm still looking.

See the thing with Stu is if you sent him a bag of dog crap he would make a vid saying how good it is. I mean I feel like I am kicking a puppy as I say that but he acts like a puppy, it’s entertaining for a little while, but no.
The frame may be ok but there are frames readily available that won’t take weeks for the parts to get here and that are known quantities.  If I could only change one thing it would be the frame
Quote
I won't argue motors, i actually thought they're decent - if there's better alternatives nowadays, i'll go back to googling. Thought they were decent "midrange" motors.
They are reasonable for beginner to intermediate in terms of performance, my issue with them is twofold - QC - I know pilots that bought 5 and has two with slipped magnets so ended up buying 6 to get 4working motors, and secondly (and this may be q.v. also) emax red bottoms have a track record for making noise. I would look at the new emax light range, or something like cobra champion 2205 2300 for mid cost reasonable. That said, see previous comment about frames, I would be more confident of the motors than the frame
Quote
Camera i actually just forgot and haven't looked into it because of that, but will most likely end up with either a Runcam Swift 2, Eagle 2 or a Foxeer Predator, if my google-fu serves me right.
That’s a mix up
CCD -just good and workable
Runcam swift
Foxeer arrow
CMOS- latest ones are better than ccd for some stuff like spotting scraggle when gap hitting but general picture/just learning CCD is probably better image
Foxeer predator
Runcam sparrow
The eagle has a lot of fans, I don’t class it as good as the other two above, but am aware it is a specific version that gets the praise
Quote

Well fair enough, gotta check for another decent frame possibly, another vtx, different motors and maybe props (although they were suggested for beginners, that's the reason behind it).

Cheers.
Vtx
I think the one you have listed will work, assuming you are not in difficult environments o flying with others. It may we’ll work even then. Unify and tramp are probably the two most preferred though, people tend to be in one camp or the other

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 15:21:10 »
Well from the get-go i'll be flying on rugby fields, no trees etc there. Proximity flying etc looks fun but i have to get there first - on fixed wings i'd be looking, basically, for an E-Flite Apprentice (which i got as my first fixed wing). That's what i'd want/need in drone form. Something that if it were a bike, it'd have training wheels.

I'm starting to wonder if things like the Wizard etc are not maybe the better choice - some of them actually have to some degree decent hardware nowadays. When i was starting in RC looking at stuff, chinese bnf stuff was basically for the bin (or not, because half the time it caught fire).

Maybe i should start with a BNF instead of scratchbuilding, and if that goes well, start building. Need to check reviews etc of all the new bnf drones.

edit: Like, for example, the Emax HAWK 5. From what i can tell, that's actually genuinely a decent drone, or am i mistaken?

Oh and yeah. Stu is a bit of a puppy, i get what you mean.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 15:34:05 by m4inbrain »

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 17:09:33 »
The wizard is a reasonable rtf for a first quad,don’t really know the others

Thing with rtf/bnf is as soon as you crash then you are gonna have to diagnose and repair, that is a whole lot easier if you build it yourself, add to that any bnf/rtf that is reasonably priced is using sub standard part because some of the cost is the build.

You really are not far off,
Switch the frame, take a look at the lisam 210 from banggood if you are constrained by price

Try a set of hawksky 2205 2600kv motors,
Throw in a swift or an arrow and you are good

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2018, 18:08:52 »
Usually i'd argue that you're right, but i think i'll go with the Hawk 5 for one simple reason: almost everything quality parts. The VTX i'm not 100% sure about, but that's changeable if necessary, i don't intend to fly further than 50-100m away from me in the beginning anyway.

I listened and watched every single review of it (not just Stu, which as usual was raving) - but everyone else was too.

This also takes the issue of tuning out of the picture, since it comes tuned already. Only downside seems to be that it doesn't do too great on 3s, but for what i want to do with it, that's still decent.

In regards to parts:

Flight controller: EMAX  Magnum F4 built in Betaflight OSD
Brushless motor: EMAX LS2206 2300kv motors
Brushless ESC: EMAX  Bullet 30A 4 in 1 BLHeli_S DSHOT600
Receiver: Frsky XM+ 16ch Sbus Micro
VTX: 48 Channel 5.8ghz 25/200mw switchable power VTX board
Camera: Foxeer Arrow Micro V2 600TVL CCD camera
Propeller: Avan Flow 5x4.3x3 3-blade 5 inch

That's not too bad for £190. Or around £210 from a retailer in the UK. And more importantly, i'll actually be able to fly it this summer still instead of waiting for parts, ruining something and re-ordering it. :D

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 18:29:40 »
Don’t know the frame,
The parts list is reasonable, other than UI vtx wouldn’t argue with any of it.

Offline m4inbrain

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Re: Beginner, need help selecting parts for first build.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2018, 18:33:46 »
Yeah, the VTX as mentioned might be questionable, but certainly replaceable down the line. For starting out, that'll do plenty and it leaves room to grow with it.

Once that's ruined or "out of fashion", i can then look into more high profile parts tailored to what i actually will end up doing with the quad (racing, acro etc if any of those).

That being said, thank you for the help.

Cheers