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Author Topic: Advice with first build  (Read 544 times)

Offline fin

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Advice with first build
« on: February 23, 2018, 23:52:07 »
Hi all :)
We started out at Xmas with a X16 typhoon Quad, lost a prop at 100 feet and watched it explode in front of us, we looked at each other and bust out laughing, instantly we knew this was something we were going to enjoy doing.

After rebuilding the X16 into a franken quad with FPV we kinda wanted more performance, we have been watching the DRL for a year or so, so we decided we were going to try a acro / race drone style

Since  we have been researching and he has done over 100 hours on the DRL simulator, i think he is about 250ish in the ranking, we plan to get a mini E010 to run around the house while we build our own.

We decided on the following build
Frame
https://www.banggood.com/Realacc-Real1-220mm-5-Inch-4mm-Thickness-Vertical-Arm-CNC-Carbon-Fiber-Frame-Kit-for-RC-FPV-Racing-Drone-p-1194720.html?rmmds=myorder
Flight controller
https://www.banggood.com/Racerstar-TattooF4S-30A-BLHELI_32-4in1-ESC-5V-BEC-w-F4-Flight-Controller-AIO-OSD-Current-Sensor-for-RC-Drone-p-1184869.html?rmmds=myorder
Motors
https://www.banggood.com/Racerstar-Racing-Edition-2306-BR2306S-2700KV-2-4S-Brushless-Motor-For-X210-X220-250-FPV-Racing-Frame-p-1149532.html?rmmds=myorder
Receiver
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FrSky-R-XSR-2-4GHz-16CH-ACCST-Micro-S-Bus-CPPM-Receiver-w-Redundancy-LBT-Firm/253277977039?hash=item3af88b39cf:g:neMAAOSwNWxaGb6Z
With the Inverted Telemetery mod and LBT firmware.

Taranis X9D Plus Transmiter
Fatshark Attitude V2

We do not have all of the parts in yet and we are still waiting on the post man.... every day ... :)

I am considering this camera
https://www.banggood.com/Upgraded-Mista-800TVL-CCD-2_1mm-Wide-Angle-HD-1080P-169-OSD-FPV-Camera-PALNTSC-Switchable-p-1227752.html?rmmds=cart_middle_products

I need to choose a decent VTX, we are using spiral Ariel's .
Any idea's? (I am looking for less break up, range will be 300 meters max for now)

For the build the FC is insulated on plastic stand offs (screw points are 5V) and I was considering rubber mounts as the carbon frame is giving 40 ohms from corner to corner, I am assuming the motors will be putting a lot of RF noise into the frame. does anyone have experience of isolating the motors from the frame ?

Its my understanding that we need to keep the VTX Connector off the frame also, as it isolates the VTX from motor and ESC noise, is this right?

With all of the above in mind, and sorry its a war and peace :) am I missing anything? any advice is always welcome :), we are very new to this and could use some guidance :)

Cheers
fin

Offline Bad Raven

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2018, 09:00:41 »
Hi Fin,

Well, can only say I have never had to insulate the motors from the frame, and on a couple of my quads the SMA connector for video Tx is screwed through the carbon frame direct. Not experienced any issues, but that means little.

However, I operate the "its not broken so don't fix it" policy, coupled with KISS, but am always ready to change IF anything experienced.  Not had to.

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2018, 11:57:08 »
Hi all :)
We started out at Xmas with a X16 typhoon Quad, lost a prop at 100 feet and watched it explode in front of us, we looked at each other and bust out laughing, instantly we knew this was something we were going to enjoy doing.

After rebuilding the X16 into a franken quad with FPV we kinda wanted more performance, we have been watching the DRL for a year or so, so we decided we were going to try a acro / race drone style

Since  we have been researching and he has done over 100 hours on the DRL simulator, i think he is about 250ish in the ranking, we plan to get a mini E010 to run around the house while we build our own.

We decided on the following build
Just gonna pull this appart a bit for you
Quote
Frame
https://www.banggood.com/Realacc-Real1-220mm-5-Inch-4mm-Thickness-Vertical-Arm-CNC-Carbon-Fiber-Frame-Kit-for-RC-FPV-Racing-Drone-p-1194720.html?rmmds=myorder
Looks fragile, cheap price generally means cheap carbon, I would expect it isn’t gonna last long as a racer, when it goes suggest talking to people, there are better frames, but should get you off the ground
Quote
Flight controller
https://www.banggood.com/Racerstar-TattooF4S-30A-BLHELI_32-4in1-ESC-5V-BEC-w-F4-Flight-Controller-AIO-OSD-Current-Sensor-for-RC-Drone-p-1184869.html?rmmds=myorder
Rebrand of the Sunrise Siskin, I like it
Quote
Motors
https://www.banggood.com/Racerstar-Racing-Edition-2306-BR2306S-2700KV-2-4S-Brushless-Motor-For-X210-X220-250-FPV-Racing-Frame-p-1149532.html?rmmds=myorder
Quote
and here is the real problem. Cheap and shoddy motors, poor quality control and sub standard materials.
Assuming the QC doesn’t let you down and you get 4 working motors you will get in the air but really worth investing in something at least mid range and if you have any expectation of racing competitively something much better.
There are many good motors out there, most are quite pricey but there are mid price options. Let us know when these die and we will make some suggestions (and be careful they don’t take the flight controller with them)
Quote
Receiver
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FrSky-R-XSR-2-4GHz-16CH-ACCST-Micro-S-Bus-CPPM-Receiver-w-Redundancy-LBT-Firm/253277977039?hash=item3af88b39cf:g:neMAAOSwNWxaGb6Z
With the Inverted Telemetery mod and LBT firmware.

Taranis X9D Plus Transmiter
Take a qx7, cheaper and just as good
If you are planning to race you don’t need telemetry, recomend xm+
Quote
Fatshark Attitude V2

We do not have all of the parts in yet and we are still waiting on the post man.... every day ... :)

I am considering this camera
https://www.banggood.com/Upgraded-Mista-800TVL-CCD-2_1mm-Wide-Angle-HD-1080P-169-OSD-FPV-Camera-PALNTSC-Switchable-p-1227752.html?rmmds=cart_middle_products
Cheap cams have high latency and crap WDR
Get one of:
Runcam swift
Foxeer arrow
Foxeer predator
More money, but you can’t beat being able to see
Quote
I need to choose a decent VTX, we are using spiral Ariel's .
Any idea's? (I am looking for less break up, range will be 300 meters max for now)
Defacto for race events are tbs unify pro hv race or immersionrc tramp. Aside from anything else they will test the output, cheap vtx will be too high or too low or two wide, thanks but you are not allowed to fly today
Quote
For the build the FC is insulated on plastic stand offs (screw points are 5V) and I was considering rubber mounts as the carbon frame is giving 40 ohms from corner to corner, I am assuming the motors will be putting a lot of RF noise into the frame. does anyone have experience of isolating the motors from the frame ?
Nylon standoffs are fine, people use rubber mounts not for electrical insulation but vibration damping, but filters are pretty good nowerdays, at most use silicon o rings
Motor isolation - no, forget it, don’t need it, well appart from the fact your motors are underpowered and poor QC but again alectrical noise messing with the fpv feed would be 5e first problem, get a 1000uf 35v LESR capacitor, cost you less than 50p and don’t worry about soft mounting.
Quote
Its my understanding that we need to keep the VTX Connector off the frame also, as it isolates the VTX from motor and ESC noise, is this right?
No,
 You (or someone) is bluriring the line between electrical and mechanical noise. No live part of the motor is touching the frame, the frame is effectively ground, the outer part of the vtx antenna is ground. No part of the esc (live or ground) should be touching the carbon of the frame - since you are using an aio the escs and fc are nicely isolated from the frame)
The only worry point is how unbalanced your motors may be (as I say it is a QC thing with cheap, particularly the banggood racerstar, motors, you play pot luck
Quote
With all of the above in mind, and sorry its a war and peace :) am I missing anything? any advice is always welcome :), we are very new to this and could use some guidance :)

Cheers
fin
take a drive through the 250 builds forum, loads of examples there, otherwise start a build bread in there and ask when you get Qs

Offline fin

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 22:05:44 »
Thanks for the feedback Cheredanine, its appreciated.
I went over the motor detail and found that I have misunderstood the motor isolation, it is indeed mechanical vibration. The other article was about ESC noise and I blurred the lines in my misunderstanding.

Switching an inductive load (motor) was causing noise on the ESC supply rail, the fix was to use ESR caps on the power input to the ESC

Thanks for the clarity, its a steep learning curve :)

The frame has already arrived, and I agree you are right, I do not see it lasting a real crash so we may as well get some use from it, build it, smash it, and re-build on another platform :) which is half the fun.

The Racerstar motor appear to be the biggest concern,  at the time the spec'd performance looked good on paper, but the more reviews I read the more I see the issue's that people are experiencing with poor Quality Control, not using Japanese bearings, imbalanced bells that are out of kilter which eats bearings and such, it looks like I need to drop them, Thanks again for the heads up.

I was looking at the

Emax RS2205S 2300KV
https://www.banggood.com/Emax-RS2205S-2300KV-Racing-Edition-Brushess-Motor-CW-CCW-for-FPV-Racing-p-1093090.html?rmmds=cart_middle_products&cur_warehouse=HK

As a suitable replacement, they seem to have decent reviews.

I did get a fatshark 600tvl camera and a ImmersionRC 600mw transmitter, with a spare Eachine TX5258 5.8G 72CH 25/200/500/800mW which apparently has a play nice race band setup capability.

However to be honest, I do not see us being ready to fly with others yet, we have lots of time to have fun and find our feet.

I will be sure to check out the 250 builds. and I will drop an image of the finished build when we are done, and of course another picture when we crash it :)

Thanks again :)
fin

Offline ched999uk

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 22:39:14 »
Sometimes it is good to do a new build thread as you can post images in stages and if anyone spots anything amiss or can suggest a better way to do things?
Plus I love seeing how different people do things as every one is different.  ::)

Have fun.

Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2018, 01:42:45 »
Re motor isolation.
Mechanical noise - I don’t use soft mounts for motors, never had, the mechanical part of my mind says in order for the soft mount to be soft enough the screw isn’t tight and mechanical vibration on a lose screw Only has one effect.
If you have mechanical noise generally, assuming it isn’t due to motor or prop being unbalanced, you can tune it out with filters. If you need more the fc can be soft mounted on rubber standoffs or using rubber o rings. (Some fc come with gyro soft mounted on the board)

Re electrical noise
When there were boards with the mpu 6500 or 9250 (6500 with additional sensors) electrical noise was contributing to gyro issues, but been over a year since I have seen any occurance of that, far more likely is electrical noise as you describe getting into the fpv feed. Whilst technically the best method of dealing with this is putting capacitance as close as possible to the source of the noise (assuming you are not going to add an L-C filter) this means adding 4 caps at vulnerable points on the quad. A much more common approach which works fine, is adding a single cap across the lipo pads on the pdb, generally a 1000uf 35v Low ESR electrolytic cap is used, lower voltages or capacitance can be used depending on the quad but it becomes less effective as the spikes produced by the escs get close to spec.

Those emax are reasonable, a bit old, but people still fly them, however for racing quad, 2300kv is a little low nowerdays and 2205 ilacks a little torque for a modern fast prop (eg gemfan flash 5152), I Suspect you would wear them out before you out grow them, but if you haven’t bought yet I would look for at least 2206 or 2306 and at least 2400kv for a competitive racer.

Different pilots prefer different brands, some brands are more expensive than others
Personnaly if I was building right now I would take BrotherHobby returner r5 or t-motor f40ii pros but both are pricey, particularly the t motors

I would also use uk stores, support is a whole lot better
Electricwingman
Hobbyrc
Quadcopters
Being the three main site I would use
Economy stuff from somewhere like makeitbuildit (phil is a good guy)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 01:45:55 by Cheredanine »

Offline fin

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 22:33:29 »
Completed the build :)


We had a full acro mode flight test today, it went very very good for out of the box, it has enough power on a 3s to have lots of fun with, I have ordered a Turnigy Graphene 1300mAh 4S 65C-130C SQUARE LiPo Battery w/ XT60 and its coming soon :)

I will also link a video soon.

I do have a weird issue, when screwing the camera to the frame as the screw gets tighter the video drops, note the frame is not grounded via the VTX and is completely isolated from all electronics, I am waiting on a pigtail to get the frame grounded via the VTX, I am not sure but i suspect the VTX signal is being induced onto the frame and when the ground shell of the camera is connected via the mounting screw this signal is being passed onto the camera ground, I will understand the situation better when I actually connect the frame to ground via the VTX.

Thanks for the feedback and guidance. it's appreciated :)

Offline ched999uk

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2018, 22:59:35 »
Looks good. One thing I would change is the vtx antenna. Currently if you have a crash any impact on the antenna is directly passed to the connector as there is no support for it. You need to secure the antenna to the frame.
As for the video dropping when eh screws get tight, I doubt if it is a frame grounding issue. I would guess the screws are too long and shorting out the camera inside!!! Maybe put some washers on the bolts to decrease the length into the camera!
Also generally it's best to not electrically connect things to the frame at all. On my builds I actually isolate the vtx from the frame. There is always a slight possibility of something shorting to the frame so don't intentionally connect the frame to 0V.

Looks good though. Dont forget flight footage :) 4S will be nice and nippy :)

Offline fin

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 13:37:34 »
@Ched999uk,
You were right, crashed last night and knocked the Antenna SMA connector off the VTX, luckily the pigtail also arrived yesterday, So, its been stripped and soldered direct to the VTX and now on the frame where is would be  :smiley:
I have some footage now which is really good, however I will wait on the 4s to post Video :)

Flying again tonight :)

Offline ched999uk

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Re: Advice with first build
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 15:47:09 »
The only worry is that a vtx can be damaged by being powered on without an antenna!! So when it broke off it could have also killed the vtx.
Do a range check on the vtx before you fly just to check, sometimes they work for a shorter distance then it did before the crash!!!
You just need to power the quad on and walk with your goggles/screen as far as you normally fly and see if you still have decent reception.
3S footage is good as it shows the sort of performance you get on the lover voltage.

Good Luck and have fun.