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Author Topic: National trust  (Read 461 times)

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Online Fletch

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National trust
« on: January 04, 2017, 21:25:13 »
So after the announcement by the national trust.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/flying-drones-at-our-places

I think a cheeky Facebook post on there page is in order.




Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 03:49:10 »
So I'm wording a post ... but I'm not 100% on the rules and regs

Anyone fancy chipping in on where I have gone wrong?!

Yes I am just trolling but I can't help it when I see media style BS

Good morning, I'd like to enquire a little about your latest release on the use of "drones" at national trust sites.

The national trust does not own the airspace over its properties, and as such you have no control of the airspace.  This is under the CAAs control.

The information on your website regarding the legal position being unclear is incorrect, the requirements are stated in the Air Navigation order and CAP722.  UAS vehicles are classified by weight, equipment on board and how the are flown.  There is also an active exemption for flight using first person view equipment.

So as long as i am not in controlled airspace, I was to take off from a neighbouring field with the land owners permission, I'm not flying the uas over a gathering of more than 1000 people, I am above the vertical height of 50m and my spotter or I can maintain visual line of sight of the UAS I am perfectly legal.

There are also insurance options avaliable to professionals and hobbiests, the hobbiest level public liability is for £25 million.

As long as any images captured are for private use, there is no issues with data protection. 

However on a technical note, these UAS vehicles usually carry cameras with a very wide field of view which is ideal for wide panoramic photos and low detail on small objects.   From a height of 50m it would be impossible to identify anything more than the shape of a person on the ground. 

Do you prevent people on the ground from using camera phones, compact or SLR cameras which have powerful digital and optical zooms??

The level of noise from a UAS is less than that of a tractor or petrol strimmer used on many of your sites, particularly once up to the required altitude.   

It may be worth passing the information found at the following links to the correct department, and ensuring the staff responsible are educated in the correct laws not the incorrect information currently being given out by the national trust.

https://www.caa.co.uk/uas
http://dronesafe.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Dronecode.pdf

I've also had a look at your byelaws at the link below  and see no mention of drones and only a small mention of selling photos for reward
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/documents/the-national-trust-byelaws-1965.pdf

Offline hackman

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Re: National trust
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 06:47:48 »
Looks correct to me :-)

Offline atomiclama

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Re: National trust
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 07:20:18 »
Looks good to me.

Would you mind if I use that in any correspondence I may need to write?
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Online hoverfly

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Re: National trust
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 09:43:52 »
Pointing out holes in their wall might get them bricked up.. :hmm:
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Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 10:17:37 »
Pointing out holes in their wall might get them bricked up.. :hmm:
How will they brick them up?

The bylaws are from 1965 and they don't own the airspace ...

Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2017, 10:17:50 »
Looks good to me.

Would you mind if I use that in any correspondence I may need to write?
Feel free.

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Re: National trust
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 10:44:02 »
How will they brick them up?

The bylaws are from 1965 and they don't own the airspace ...
I think that you will find that they already have,
as far as I am aware the default position, if local rules are not in place, is unpowered flight only on NT land.
Quote:
The National Trust welcomes non-powered model flying on its land, recognising that the activity seldom causes significant disturbance, provided particular care is taken with regard to other visitors, livestock and birds.
I think..........I think I am........therefore I am.............I think!

Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 10:54:22 »
I think that you will find that they already have,
as far as I am aware the default position, if local rules are not in place, is unpowered flight only on NT land.
Quote:
The National Trust welcomes non-powered model flying on its land, recognising that the activity seldom causes significant disturbance, provided particular care is taken with regard to other visitors, livestock and birds.
But my point is they don't control the airspace ...
That's the CAAs job ...

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Re: National trust
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2017, 12:38:23 »
But my point is they don't control the airspace ...
That's the CAAs job ...
So therefore you speak to the CAA not the NT, but I can tell you what the answer will be!!!
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Offline hackman

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Re: National trust
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2017, 17:37:27 »
Fletch made the point they can ask you not to fly while physically standing on their land, although the bylaws don't give them the legal right, other than to ask you to leave. If you are standing outside their property and flying above 50m (& no large crowds) then you are legally perfectly within your rights to fly with due care / attention according to the Drone Code.

Yes / no ?

Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 17:50:33 »
Yes, there is no point in contacting the CAA ... They already state I can fly

The national trust are trying to control the airspace over there property.  It's not there's to control

Offline ched999uk

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Re: National trust
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 18:09:04 »
Yes, there is no point in contacting the CAA ... They already state I can fly

The national trust are trying to control the airspace over there property.  It's not there's to control

I believe you are very correct. Nation Trust do not control the airspace. If I were you I would abide by what you know to be the law not what NT would like to think it is.
Lets face it, they cant do anything if you fly within the law. I would not point out their lack of knowledge as they might try and get Gov on their side and introduce legislation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes big organisations try and state rules and by laws knowing full well that they are not enforceable in the hope they stop people doing things they don't like. i.e. Blackpool Council put up signs in all their parks saying 'no smoking' and advising of fines. They are not enforceable and have no legal way of enforcing the signs.

Happy Flying


Offline payne

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Re: National trust
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 22:48:49 »
the only permission you need is in the take off and landing area
once in the air so long as you abide by the CAA rulings then no land owner can stop you flying in the airspace over their land
if a farmer shot the model out of the sky he would be prosecuted by the CAA (provided you took the matter up with the CAA)

if you land or crash in the land you need permission from the land owner to retrieve it
the land owner does not have the right to damage or dispose of the aircraft
if it goes skyward I'll try not to crash it

Offline BlueFlyer

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Re: National trust
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 23:06:51 »
if you land or crash in the land you need permission from the land owner to retrieve it

This has actually happened to me, although not with the NT.

The motor on my Skyhunter burnt out and I didn't have enough altitude to glide it back to the land we fly from (full permission granted). I had to land in some guy's horse paddock (no horses were harmed) a few fields over and so I went to what looked like the farmer's home and asked permission to retrieve my plane.

He said "damn thing nearly hit me, landed just a few feet away, I've a right mind to call the police" then said, "OK, go and get it but don't expect me to move the horses for you".

I got the plane back, and when I got home and reviewed the GoPro footage of the crash-landing, there was literally not a single person anywhere in the field I came down in.

I almost went back to the guy's house to show him the footage and prove him lying about nearly hitting him... but came to the conclusion it wouldn't help the situation, so didn't bother.

Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2017, 00:06:52 »
I've had a few replies from the national trust ... Quite comical really

If i keep my blinkers on this nasty man is going to go away!

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Re: National trust
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2017, 09:47:36 »
This has turned out to be quite interesting, my experience is with slope soaring sites, with almost every site you have to take off on NT land  so they have control. I don't know of a site where you could take off on private land either.
It's quite common to see the enthusiast slope soarers giving people who fly anything powered grief because of the fear of repercussions, which at times can get quite amusing!!!
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Offline BlueFlyer

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Re: National trust
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2017, 11:20:14 »
I think this is more to do with the NT's ignorance (whether deliberate or unintentional) of the rules.

OK, is it feasible to take off from non NT land and fly to one of their landmarks without breaking the LOS rule? probably not, but that's not the point. The point is that the NT are flat out wrong in what they're saying:

"CAA regulations state that drones should not be flown above or near to people"
- Sort of yes, but with specific conditions. You can't fly over open air gatherings of 1000+ people, and you can't fly within a specific distance of a person. They're hoping that Jonny DJI with his phantom/mavic is just as ignorant about the rules as they are, its scare tactics as opposed to actual education.

"unauthorised drone flying is both illegal and potentially puts people at risk."
- Just because YOU don't authorise flying at your sites, does not make it illegal.

"Few non-commercial users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones"
- I'm a non-commercial user and although I have no documented training, I don't legally "need" permission from the CAA to fly a drone so long as I fly according to the pre-existing laws within the ANO

"Some sites may have wildlife... or animals which are sensitive to disturbance... which could be... stressed by the presence of drones..."

- But I guess they're not stressed by hundreds of people stomping through their habitat AT GROUND LEVEL, physically disturbing their environment? "Drones" fly over the land and according to the 50m rule (which the CAA clarified as a bubble, not a horizontal measurement) no lower than 50m from the ground or any other structure or property... not likely to disturb the wildlife as much as a few pesky kids smashing bushes and throwing rocks is it?

"Many drones have cameras attached and these could infringe data protection laws"
- So could someone carrying a smart phone, or a DSLR camera with a telephoto lens... you don't ban those do you?



I read Fletches post on the FB page, and their responses are laughable.

Its my honest opinion that lobbying has been carried out by commercial operators to the NT... "warning" of the dangers of rogue drone operators on their land... purely to protect their own interests.

Online Fletch

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Re: National trust
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2017, 11:22:43 »
Its my honest opinion that lobbying has been carried out by commercial operators to the NT... "warning" of the dangers of rogue drone operators on their land... purely to protect their own interests.

I hadn't thought of that!  i was going with the usual media fear tactic taking hold!

Offline BlueFlyer

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Re: National trust
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2017, 11:38:51 »
I've seen drone footage of NT sites in their marketing, and of course they have nature and documentary TV programs there all the time. Therefore  NT must have come into contact with commercial operators, and now with the Govt stepping in with this consultation it's making all the commercial operators think about how they can maximise their potential income from these "new" technologies (tech that's actually been around and used for decades lol).

Think about it... powered RC flight has always been prohibited at NT locations, what's happened over the last few years specifically for the NT to create a web page SOLELY for "Drone Flying"? The rise of commercial operators using the EXACT same machines to make money from it, that's what.

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Re: National trust
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2017, 12:10:12 »
I think most of the no powered flight regs come from when  diesel / glow engines were the power source.  The regs have not moved with the tech and who gives a fluk if it dosen't  affect them.
A ban is easier to apply rather than actually looking at the situation.
I have seen people sloping loose control and crashed in car parks behind a slope,  with a motor  they would (mostly) have had a chance of getting back into lift, or out of a rotor.
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Offline sirknight

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Re: National trust
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2017, 18:42:19 »
Hi everyone
I have just received my mavic pro, with a view to going out into the scenic areas of the the uk to capture some photos and videos, being a considerate operator I have looking at the rules etc of where I can fly a drone, I now find that a lot of my countryside is out of bounds The National Trust don't allow it.
Of the various reason they quote is -
"Some sites may have wildlife or agricultural animals, or animals which are sensitive to disturbance, such as birds and deer herds, which could be alarmed or stressed by the presence of drones, especially at breeding times"
I live near to the peak district where if you are a bird on national trust moorland you can be shot ! but not stressed by a drone, shooting brings in money, drones don't !

My other half has recently been trying to get me to pay out to join the National Trust I now have a valid reason to say NO.

I would love to hear any views on this.

Offline BlueFlyer

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Re: National trust
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 19:12:42 »
Do it anyway and fly within the rules set down by the CAA in the ANO... so line of sight, 50m from property, structures etc, just as long as you don't act like an idiot or deliberately "buzz" people or property. If you get your Mavic out, send it up and get some nice pictures/video... bring it down and pop it back in your pocket/bag and carry on walking I doubt anyone would even notice, or if they did... as long as you didn't disturb them I can't see them reporting you or anything.

Carry on like this, getting nice pictures and videos for your own personal pleasure for as long as you can, then if/when someone with any authority comes over and asks you to stop because it's not allowed... simply stop, apologise, and move on.

You're not doing anything "illegal" you're just not abiding by the rules of the land owner. They're 2 completely different things.

If you come and visit my home and I say "you're not allowed to swear in this house" but you use bad language whilst I'm not around... I don't know, and the bad language didn't harm anyone did it? But if I hear you say a naughty word I can ask you to leave. It's not ILLEGAL to curse in my house, I just don't allow it.

Offline DarkButterfly

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Re: National trust
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 20:19:58 »
My sonic 64 is so quiet, it could probably be flown over NT land without them even realising even though it's an EDF.

I'd say go for it, the only thing they can do is move you on, as long you fly within current regs. ~~
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Re: National trust
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2017, 20:37:16 »
I had hoped to publish some videos on youtube to encourage other people to visit some of the excellent scenery we have in this country.
but will now have to exclude anything associated with the national trust, unless I fly in from outside their "owned land".