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Author Topic: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit  (Read 3145 times)

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Offline DarrellW

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2016, 18:41:51 »
I think..........I think I am........therefore I am.............I think!

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2016, 20:23:58 »
Don't think I would want to run a Laser machine like that Darrel needs a lot of protection putting around it if you Value your (or anyone elses who may be in the vicinity of it)  Eyesight.

Doug

Offline DarrellW

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2016, 20:36:53 »
Thought that myself, there's quite a difference between safety standards in China compared to here; obviously it would need to be adequately shielded to prevent laser getting loose where undesirable but not really a biggie I think. It's a bit low powered for what I would want to use it for but the cost of one with a CO2 laser is well into 4 figures.
I think..........I think I am........therefore I am.............I think!

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2016, 21:09:31 »
Thought that myself, there's quite a difference between safety standards in China compared to here; obviously it would need to be adequately shielded to prevent laser getting loose where undesirable but not really a biggie I think. It's a bit low powered for what I would want to use it for but the cost of one with a CO2 laser is well into 4 figures.

Oh I don't know see  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40W-CO2-USB-Port-Laser-Cutting-Cutter-Engraving-Machine-Engraver-4-wheels-/201685717936?hash=item2ef567d3b0:g:NI0AAOSwzaJX-Jlq  £335 ish for a 40W CO2 laser machine (Think this maybe the same one that GASH uses) Still don't think I would want to take to much of a risk with them mind.

At the end of the day if you can see it then it is low Freq stuff the real danger is when it is longer wavelength in the invisible spectrum and high power as well (We use such things in the telecomms world where even 10dBm lasers will take your eyes out without a second chance I have been known to have to go into an exchange to power down such systems so that the Splicing guys can work on them 50kM away

Offline DarrellW

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2016, 21:17:28 »
I know where you are coming from but as part of my job I program sheet metal using a cnc punch/laser so am aware and familiar with the do's and don'ts they are pretty safe when guarded and set up properly, not seen an incident of injury in their use since I've been using them.
An interesting article here:
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/lasercutting/laser-safety-in-the-industrial-workplace
I think..........I think I am........therefore I am.............I think!

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2016, 22:08:51 »
I know where you are coming from but as part of my job I program sheet metal using a cnc punch/laser so am aware and familiar with the do's and don'ts they are pretty safe when guarded and set up properly, not seen an incident of injury in their use since I've been using them.
An interesting article here:
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/lasercutting/laser-safety-in-the-industrial-workplace

Glad to hear that Darrel  would hate to think of the un-initiated falling into the trap of thinking because it's cheap it's also semi safe there is a lot to take into account with this stuff.

Have seen stuff pushed on some of the 3D Print forum suggesting this sort of laser mod and the only saftey thing you see is a pair of orange glasses and at the end of the day there are lots of people out there that will take it that this sort of stuff is safe when it clearly isn't.

Wasn't in any way suggesting you fell into this bracket but trying to point out to the wider community to be extremely careful.

Doug

Offline Hands0n

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2016, 22:22:22 »
Nice one Danny

Quick Question or 2

did you fit endstops and if so How.

Also any chance you could do me a copy of the CD that came with yours (An ISO of it will do?

Doug

Hi Doug

I haven't fitted any endstops but have purchased some Limit Switches to fit when I get me a Round Tuit ::)   

Yes, no probs re the CD. PM me an address to post it to and I'll make a copy of it for you in the next day or so. ~~ 

--
Danny
"Its better than bad, its good"

Current FCs: Pixhawk, APM 2.6, Naza M V2, Naze32, Flip32+ CC3D, KK2.1.5
Aircraft: miniMax Hex, DJI 550 (clone) TBS Disco, 450 Firefly, 250 Pro, ZMR250, Hubsan X4, Bixler 2

Offline Hands0n

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2016, 12:56:05 »
Spindle Replacement

So after using the stock machine for a little while, and my friend (rotorx) buying the 3040 model (that comes with Ballscrews by the way, if you locate the right seller) a decsion was made to work on replacing the Spindle with something altogether more industrial.  Something that at least matched the overall quality and strength of the actual machine itself.  The supplied 200 watt motor doesn't come close.

A decision was made to design and build our own.  I say "our" - but 99.9865% of the work is all rotorx's so kudos to him for what resulted.  I drank his tea and gave feedback to the ideas we were talking over.  Key was flexibility such that the replacement was flexible in how it was powered and geared to allow tailoring to specific use.

The requirement was to come up with a substantial upgrade that was a drop-in replacement for the original spindle.  We did, however, have to make some compromises, the power supply would need to be upgraded also. 

Pulley and belt drive was chosen to allow for complete flexibility in power and speed at the spindle bit itself.

Longer term, once we've worked out the HowTo we're hoping to include full PWM control from Mach3 via the stock supplied motion controller. Its there, but we've not worked out the practical details ... yet!

We're delighted with what we've come up with. The result is quiet and massively efficient.   Power and control are a WIP but are also highly adaptable to whatever it is we want to use the machine for.  We now have a spindle arrangement that is not only a match for the build quality of the machine's frame but also likely to last an entire lifetime, transferable to any new (larger) models of this kind of construction (at least).

Enough rambling .... pictures.

Drop-in replacement constructed to same dimensions of original motor. No butchering of the frame
22265-0

22267-1


Upgrade to an ER16 allows for much larger cutting bits to be used
22269-2

22271-3
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 13:02:33 by Hands0n »
--
Danny
"Its better than bad, its good"

Current FCs: Pixhawk, APM 2.6, Naza M V2, Naze32, Flip32+ CC3D, KK2.1.5
Aircraft: miniMax Hex, DJI 550 (clone) TBS Disco, 450 Firefly, 250 Pro, ZMR250, Hubsan X4, Bixler 2

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2016, 14:19:06 »
What motor is that Danny and also the Gear ratio (Will there be a kit of parts available)

it does look well that mind?

Offline Hands0n

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2016, 17:32:04 »
Thats some low-KV brushless motor we had. The gearing is 1:2 but can be changed for pretty much whatever is required.

Likely to be a base build and then options like motors, different gears, that kind of stuff. All the way up to a full set (like RTF) that could include Control Box  so its a drop-in and run.
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Danny
"Its better than bad, its good"

Current FCs: Pixhawk, APM 2.6, Naza M V2, Naze32, Flip32+ CC3D, KK2.1.5
Aircraft: miniMax Hex, DJI 550 (clone) TBS Disco, 450 Firefly, 250 Pro, ZMR250, Hubsan X4, Bixler 2

Offline rotorx

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2016, 19:34:23 »
Update on the Brushless spindle.

This project is now complete, The brushless motor driven spindle is a direct replacement to swap out with the inadequate feeble on supplied with these otherwise excellent routers (3020 & 3040)

The spindle is driven by its own soft start control box incorporating a over rated power supply, soft start speed control, voltmeter ammeter unit and speed control knob/adjuster.

The spindle itself is belt driven with a choice of ratios for speed/torque and has the benefit of using a ER16 collet chuck for bits up to 10mm making use of the available torque from the large 50mm brushless motor.

The spindle is carried top and bottom by substantial 30mm axial load bearings fitted in to machined bearing housings precision aligned in a solid aluminium 62mm diameter body and is preload adjustable from the top nut.

This has proved quiet and smooth in operation and has been a very useful
upgrade to these machines.   

In all a lot of work in design & development but a worthwhile project in the end.

A 3d printed belt cover is under design for a finishing touch.

See photos;

 










Offline philtrum

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2016, 07:50:48 »
very interesting, I've got the same milling machine as you know Danny, would be interested in knowing the costs/details if you would share/sell ?

Cheers
Phil
www.makeitbuildit.co.uk

Offline rotorx

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2016, 17:38:25 »
very interesting, I've got the same milling machine as you know Danny, would be interested in knowing the costs/details if you would share/sell ?

Cheers
Phil
www.makeitbuildit.co.uk

Phil,
Both Danny and I have these installed in our machines now 3020 & 3040 respectively, and are running well, and quiet too. As to costs each complete unit with control box has cost @ £150 in parts to produce, not cheap compared to the original spindle which can be bought on ebay for about £20 - £30 (which points to how poor these original spindles are)
However the brief was to produce a far superior spindle that will last and upgrade the machine substantially.
The spindle body needs a lathe and CNC industrial mill to pocket the bearing housings and cut the 3mm mounting plates accurately, otherwise the control box can be a home build.

There are enough parts in the bin to produce another complete unit currently, As with all projects like this economies of scale would enable cheaper unit cost production and possible outsourcing so if the demand was there this could prove a viable unit to manufacture.

If any further information is needed best message me. :beer2:

malcspry@outlook.com



Offline philtrum

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2016, 08:46:13 »
Thanks Malc

I think i need to sort a vac system out for it first, but once thats done i could very well be in touch ;)

Cheers
Phil

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2016, 09:44:50 »
Malc

I will be in the market for one in about a month's time if you could bare me in mind for one Please?

Have you managed to PWM it yet?

Doug

Offline Hands0n

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2016, 11:47:50 »
Doug

The Motion Control board puts out a PWM that is not fit for RC ESC, but there is a design for a convertor and I am waiting for a supply of PIC chips to have a go at building one for myself.  That would then allow Mach3's PWM, via the Motion Controller to parallel port pin 17, to be converted to RC-PWM.    With that done we'll be able to control the speed of the motor directly from Mach3.

I expect that any other CAM software that uses the PC's parallel port will do similar, the limitation perhaps being on the capability of that port to put out PWM in a non-RC way. 

Watch this space ... I'm expecting the PIC chips early Jan. I'll then hand-wire up a PCB to the design I've got and if that works then will have to see about producing a CNC-etched PCB for "production".

Thats the plan ...
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Danny
"Its better than bad, its good"

Current FCs: Pixhawk, APM 2.6, Naza M V2, Naze32, Flip32+ CC3D, KK2.1.5
Aircraft: miniMax Hex, DJI 550 (clone) TBS Disco, 450 Firefly, 250 Pro, ZMR250, Hubsan X4, Bixler 2

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2016, 14:14:53 »
Sounds Good Danny but I am thinking about using a DUET Controller on mine which will output Servo level PWM (I just happen to have one lying around spare failing that I have a Smoothie board as well) so from that Can I assume that the Motor is driven by an ESC?

Doug

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2016, 14:19:55 »
In that case Doug, you're good to go, as they say in the movies.  The motor is a hobby RC motor - 450KV and we've used 60A ESC (a bit of overkill admittedly, seeing as it only draws around 3A when machining).  So yes, if you can feed it with RC-class PWM from the Motion Controller then it'll work.
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Danny
"Its better than bad, its good"

Current FCs: Pixhawk, APM 2.6, Naza M V2, Naze32, Flip32+ CC3D, KK2.1.5
Aircraft: miniMax Hex, DJI 550 (clone) TBS Disco, 450 Firefly, 250 Pro, ZMR250, Hubsan X4, Bixler 2

Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2016, 14:32:00 »
Just need to save up a bit after Xmas lol

Offline rotorx

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2016, 14:37:13 »
Doug/Phil

As Danny has mentioned the PWM control function from Mach3 will be a retro fit if needed. The spindle and control box works stand alone as the original at the moment and is a simple swap out.

Interestingly it can also be used to drive any brushless motor, we ran a 2205 2300Kv and the 5045 400kv on the spindle, (bit of a bonus that)

The ammeter/voltmeter unit fitted will display current up to 10A which is well matched for the spindle current draw, however it can be fitted with a 50A one (with a shunt fitted) as a option so will cover any brushless motor as a 60A ESC is fitted to the control box.
It has a switch mode 350W 24V or 12V power supply giving a wide range of voltages, spindle speed can further be varied by selecting pulley ratios of the belt drive so you can have high torque/ high speed applications, If this was driven by PPM from Mach3 set pulley ratios would be needed to sync and calibrate the spindle on Mach3.

One interesting fact is that as the load on the spindle increases, the motor draws more power to compensate for the load and preventing the rpm loss which was apparent on the standard spindle motor.

A manual override would give the choice of full Mach3 control or Manual allowing high torque pulley ratios to be used. this will depend on what Danny can do with the PWM signal conversion chip.

Both our units are currently running well in manual at present.

Hope this helps. :smiley:





Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2016, 14:42:16 »
Malc

The approx cost you quoted is that for effectively a plug and play device (All be it Manual)?

I am very interested but would probably need to be back end of January when I should get my introduction fee for getting Chris a job at our place?

Doug

Offline rotorx

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2016, 14:56:02 »
Malc

The approx cost you quoted is that for effectively a plug and play device (All be it Manual)?

I am very interested but would probably need to be back end of January when I should get my introduction fee for getting Chris a job at our place?

Doug

Doug,

Each of these completed ready to run (plug n play) units cost us £150 in parts/materials each, plus machining time on the lathe and CNC Mill also the end of the blank ER16 collet spindle has a M10 fine thread cut for the bearing preload adjuster nut.

I personally prefer this approach to a high speed VFR spindle which is the only other alternative currently available, the bonus is very long life/reliability just needing the odd drop of oil to bearings and possible occasional belt replacement.

It is like a scaled down version of that fitted to my Seig KX3 CNC mill.


Online Dougal1957

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2016, 15:06:26 »
Doug,

Each of these completed ready to run (plug n play) units cost us £150 in parts/materials each, plus machining time on the lathe and CNC Mill also the end of the blank ER16 collet spindle has a M10 fine thread cut for the bearing preload adjuster nut.

I personally prefer this approach to a high speed VFR spindle which is the only other alternative currently available, the bonus is very long life/reliability just needing the odd drop of oil to bearings and possible occasional belt replacement.

It is like a scaled down version of that fitted to my Seig KX3 CNC mill.

OK I wouldn't expect therefore to have one at Cost so have you figured on a price to supply one?

I Have put a 400 watt one on mine and it is much smoother then the supplied 200 watt one but do like the idea of your@s

Doug

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2016, 20:25:58 »
Bump

Malc have you figured on a cost for the Upgrade yet?

Doug

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Re: Chinese 3020T - I've Gorn And Dunnit
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2017, 22:49:41 »
Doug,

This could be tailored to what you want to do yourself eg  can supply the spindle only and you can sort the control box or a turn key package with optional extra pulleys.

What I would strongly suggest is to see one working on the machine first which will help make a decision and you will know exactly what you will be getting whichever way you want to go and agree costs for your chosen route.

Don't know how far you want to travel but we are in Kent :smiley: