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Author Topic: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction  (Read 308 times)

Online Gavster29

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Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« on: November 12, 2017, 18:08:48 »
Hey folks,

This is my first post to the forum so please be gentle!

First a little about me, I've been in to RC all my life practically, I have quite a few land vehicles in my arsenal of various sizes and builds.  I have owned a nitro helicopter thunder tiger as I remember, but that was years ago!  I've also flown toy grade quads and also a Yuneek Q500 4k.

So being in the 250 section I am sure you can guess where I want to be in the near future!

I like a project, I am good at building stuff and I want something that takes some skill to fly (unlike the q500 type camera quads).

I would like to build a decent flyer, at the moment I'm not looking to race it but if it was good enough to race that would be good for me!

What I do have is a pair of fatshark teleporter V4 goggles, a FlySky FS-I6X radio and FSX6B receiver but nothing else.

What do I need and what brands are good?

Frame
Power distribution board
ESCs single or multiple?
Motors
Props
FPV camera and Transmitter

Anything else I'm missing?

Cost can be an issue so anything I shouldn't scrimp on or something I can learn with and upgrade as I get better?

Thanks in advance,
Gavin

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Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 21:37:32 »
Hi and  :welcome:

So batteries are always useful :)

Seriously though.

Don’t get fooled by terms like “racers” and 250.

Racers is used for all sorts of quads that can’t race for toffee.
Equally 250 is a blow back t9 the days when we were all flying blackouts and qav250, nowerdays the term is applied to at least 5 inch and probably a good 4 inch quad. It is just a label more than a specific meaning.

Strongly recomend you take a drive through the 250 builds forum. There are lots of builds there of different types, see what inspires you. Put a kit list together, put it up in that section of the forum and you will get lots of feedback

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 22:31:00 »
Hi and  :welcome:

So batteries are always useful :)

Seriously though.

Don’t get fooled by terms like “racers” and 250.

Racers is used for all sorts of quads that can’t race for toffee.
Equally 250 is a blow back t9 the days when we were all flying blackouts and qav250, nowerdays the term is applied to at least 5 inch and probably a good 4 inch quad. It is just a label more than a specific meaning.

Strongly recomend you take a drive through the 250 builds forum. There are lots of builds there of different types, see what inspires you. Put a kit list together, put it up in that section of the forum and you will get lots of feedback
Thanks for the reply :)

I did think afterwards I need batteries and a flight controller, I'm guessing quite a few batteries at that.

I realize that 250 is now a term that doesn't mean that much, I want a 5 inch quad, I'm not in to recording video so I don't need a go pro mount or anything just the FPV.

I'm just feeling a little lost on good reliable equipment I'll keep browsing but I've no idea where to start.

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Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 09:08:10 »
Ok mate - a couple of suggestions
Firstly I have a lot of 5 inch racers. My favourite one is in fact a 4 inch, it has the speed of a 5 inch but mikes better agility. Both (I have 2 of them) are in the 250 builds - kinetic aerial Air-ro
Would definatley recomend

Otherwise, ubiquitous build:
Qav210 frame (Chinese clones are available and reasonably good for about 20quid)
F4 flight controller (matek do one with a seperate pdb which it links to)
Spedix es25 escs (4 of)
Brother hobby tornado or returner motors or cobra champion 2205 (x4)
Runcam swift
Tbs unify pro hv race
Menace rc pagoda
Hq 5x4x3v1s props
1500mah 4s lipo

That is a fairly standard quad that will fly well, do acro, or race in a non pro event.

But do take a look at that part of the forum, there are lots of options

Online Gavster29

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 09:52:06 »
Ok mate - a couple of suggestions
Firstly I have a lot of 5 inch racers. My favourite one is in fact a 4 inch, it has the speed of a 5 inch but mikes better agility. Both (I have 2 of them) are in the 250 builds - kinetic aerial Air-ro
Would definatley recomend

Otherwise, ubiquitous build:
Qav210 frame (Chinese clones are available and reasonably good for about 20quid)
F4 flight controller (matek do one with a seperate pdb which it links to)
Spedix es25 escs (4 of)
Brother hobby tornado or returner motors or cobra champion 2205 (x4)
Runcam swift
Tbs unify pro hv race
Menace rc pagoda
Hq 5x4x3v1s props
1500mah 4s lipo

That is a fairly standard quad that will fly well, do acro, or race in a non pro event.

But do take a look at that part of the forum, there are lots of options
That's really helpful thank you!

I hadn't thought much of a 4 inch but I'm going to check out your builds amongst others!

Is there a go to shop that is recommended for the UK?  I'll ask about batteries more when I decide what to build :) this is not going to be rushed I might as well do the research and build a decent quad rather than rush it

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Offline Cheredanine

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 15:36:46 »
There is some history to 4 inch, they were getting increasingly popular about 2 years ago, although got to admit I didn’t particularly like at the time, hen rotor riot did a review and were very nonplussed.
This kind of killed the popularity, but the underlying reason was the available 4 inch quads at the time were really 5 inch quads with half an inch cut out of each arm. This meant they were heavy and slow

Nowerdays there are a number of light 4 inch frames and light components available, not 5 inch, the components are specs very differently. I just flew 15 packs this afternoon, 5 on my shrike, which is a classic 5 inch racer, then 10 on one of my air ro, the shrike is very nice, but the air ro matches it in all areas and has more agility if I need it.

The uk stores - there is quite a list. Most of my stuff comes from Electricwingman or hobbyrc, but many other stores (quadcopters, makeitbuildit, quadshack, I-drone etc etc) provide parts.
 
Suggest you pick what you want and people will tell you where you can buy from

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 09:06:43 »
Thanks for the reply Cheredanine I have been looking through some of the builds and I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with?

Firstly I am loving the idea of the 4" air-ro it looks like a good build and my questions are based around this for the moment....

Is the build more expensive and harder to get hold of bits?  I couldn't see an Air-Ro frame available in the UK?

I am a noob to racer drones so wonder if it is harder to fly than a 5" version although even if it is is it worth going that route to become a better pilot overall?

Your build is based around weight or the reduction of weight, I understand why you have done it, it also makes sense that the lighter it is the longer it will fly but a part of me things the lighter it is the harder it will be to fly in anything other than sunny calm conditions?

As a noob I don't think I will be tuning anything to start with so it needs to be a good learning craft.

Thanks,
Gavin

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 12:59:22 »
Thanks for the reply Cheredanine I have been looking through some of the builds and I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with?
Hi mate, using quote so I don’t miss any questions
Quote
Firstly I am loving the idea of the 4" air-ro it looks like a good build and my questions are based around this for the moment....

Is the build more expensive and harder to get hold of bits?  I couldn't see an Air-Ro frame available in the UK?
Ok so a bit of background, I build a lot of 5 inch racers. With EASA and the uk government about to 8ntroduce regulation hitting anything over 250 grams hard, I test built a sub 250 gram 5 inch racer,p. At the time even many 3 inch quads were over 250gram with the lipo, this worked so well aeronaught now sell a refined version of the frame as the featherlight 190 although it is an out and out racing frame, you have to fly it aggressively, definatley not a beginner frame. Anyway, whilst I was doing this I wanted to test it against something more conventionally under 250 grams, so discussing with a few hardware developers and testers, I looked for one of the new breed of 4 inch quads. Three stood out, the catalyst machine works superlight, the air ro and legaro do one too. The legaro one is a bit heavy, the CMW is pricey and needs arm braces so the air ro was what i used.

Electric wingman stock the frame:
https://www.electricwingman.com/air-ro-stretched-racing-frame-3mm
They have a build guide which I wrote for them:
https://www.electricwingman.com/img/cd/air-ro_builders_guide.pdf
 they stock most of the parts and I believe sell as a builders kit.
I have alsombuilt it with a raceflight millivolt/spark stack, available from dronebit.co.uk for the flight controller and escs.
The electric wingman build is cheaper than a full 5 inch (you save money on most components) if they are out of stock, hobbyrc sell everything but the frame, it is also cheaper to run (costs me close to 30 quid for a lipo for a 5 inch, more like a tenner for the 4 inch, and 4 inch props are harder to break)

Quote
I am a noob to racer drones so wonder if it is harder to fly than a 5" version although even if it is is it worth going that route to become a better pilot overall?
Cheaply built quads don’t fly well, that makes them harder to fly.
You can make a good quad tame with settings, no amount of settings will make a quad with poor components fly well

So I would use 3 cell lipos to start with, that would tame the power, keep the weigh down price and generally make it tame, you can use low rates and limit the throttle to tame it further if you need to.

To be honest, it flies like a 5 inch except where I 5 inch will basically carry momentum in changes of direction, this, due to the weight, doesn’t, when you tell it to change direction, it changes, once you fly it, going to back to 5 inch is tedious.
Quote
Your build is based around weight or the reduction of weight, I understand why you have done it, it also makes sense that the lighter it is the longer it will fly but a part of me things the lighter it is the harder it will be to fly in anything other than sunny calm conditions?
Indeed as above its over riding principle was under 250gram for the reasons above, but I spent a lot of time with engineerx who does a lot of motor tests for smaller motors. The theory rapidly shifted from weight to power to weight ratio. The quad is half the weight of your average 5 inch but has 2/3rds of the power on 4s, meaning it has a better power to weight than 5 inch, and being smaller has less drag. I fly every day when it isnt raining or massively strong winds, I regularly fly when the rest of the flight line I use consider it too windy. The air ro is not adversely effect by wind any more than 5 inch
(An interesting point is the build of a quad seems to have a more consequence to windy conditions, quads with sides (tbs vandetta for example) struggle hugely, the more material there is, the more it acts like a sail
Quote
As a noob I don't think I will be tuning anything to start with so it needs to be a good learning craft.

The air ro can take hits, i can give you a set of PIDs, filters and rates that will Work for three cell, although the ones in the electric wingman guide should be fine for 3s
Quote
Thanks,
Gavin
No worries

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 13:05:50 »
That is a great insight again thanks for the help, I'm off to look at kit costs!

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 13:13:31 »
Lol no problem, found their builders kit here:
https://www.electricwingman.com/airro-racing-quadcopter-builders-kit
Needs runcam swift micro or Foxeer arrow micro adding and some other bits like reciever
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 13:27:22 by Cheredanine »

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 17:59:14 »
I found them and sent the link over to my Mrs as a hint lol

So what is that kit like, would I need to change anything or is it good to go, I'll take a look at the build guide later.

Any recommendations on the FPV side of things, as long as they work with the Fatshark goggles

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 18:14:11 »
The kit contains he core parts, including a vtx.
The build guide has a full list, but besides the kit you would need:
Foxeer arrow micro v2 camera
Or
Runcam swift micro camera
A 470uf 25v low esr capacitor, should cost about 37p
Depends on your reciever but I use these for the Rx antenna:
http://multirotorspares.co.uk/over-the-standoff-receiver-antenna-tube-holders-made-from-flexable-tpu-4-pieces-by-plastic-spider/
You will need an xt30 connector and some wires
Props: hq 4x4.3x3v1s (electric wingman and hobbyrc sell)
Lipos suggest tattu or turnigy nanotech 850mah 3s (make sure they have xt30 or get spares)
I would also recommend upgrading the antenna to one of the two below (assuming you have rhcp on your goggles):
http://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/lumenier-axii-58ghz-antenna-rhcp-ufl
Or
http://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/tbs-cloverleaf-antenna

The tbs is the best antenna, but gets damaged easy, the axii is far more robust, but not quite as good.

You are gonna need wires etc. And whatever Rx you are using (I use Frsky so mine have xm+)

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 21:29:54 »
Thanks buddy,

I still haven't read the guide I've been busy sorting out my other RC hobby!

Seems fairly straightforward I'm thinking it could be the way to go, I can't do anything before Christmas as I have an agreement with the Mrs to not buy anything yet.

The radio I have is the FlySky FS-I6X and I have the FS6B receiver  if that helps?

Do I need anything extra for OSD?

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 00:18:28 »
Not really a flysky person,

No, flight controller has built in betaflight osd

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 07:28:37 »
Not really a flysky person,

No, flight controller has built in betaflight osd
It was cheap for another project it's not bad for what it is really, I'm sure it will be ok for a starter

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 09:31:10 »
Just another quick question, can I use a RunCam Split 2 with the frame or is it too big?

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 10:59:04 »
The frame fits it, it has full sized mounts as well as the mini, but if you put the split in you have no where to mount the hglrc flight stack (the split board will obscure the 20mm mounts)
In which case you will need to replace the hglrc stack with a conventional flight controller, escs and vtx.
There are two more thoughts there - 1.split is extra weight, 2 make sure you have a high spec 5v reg, the split is a thursty little beggar

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 12:44:58 »
The frame fits it, it has full sized mounts as well as the mini, but if you put the split in you have no where to mount the hglrc flight stack (the split board will obscure the 20mm mounts)
In which case you will need to replace the hglrc stack with a conventional flight controller, escs and vtx.
There are two more thoughts there - 1.split is extra weight, 2 make sure you have a high spec 5v reg, the split is a thursty little beggar
I was reading that the new Split 2 would take 5-17v now with a built in regulator on board so hopefully it could be run directly from the lipo?  Regardless that would leave me with 2 issues, the first being the stack and the second being weight the weight I am not dead set in hitting below 250g but it would be nice however a full size stack is more of an issue?

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 18:50:03 »
I would not run the split from battery, quad escs have “active breaking”, this produces massive voltage spikes, infamous for blowing cameras and vtx, most moder vtx you can safely run from lipo have a rating up to about 40volts.

I think hoverfly or Horza built theirs with a full sized fc. I would look at putting the escs on the arms rather than using a 4 in 1 to stop the stack getting too high, something like spedix 20a would do it, or you could even use some of the smaller blheli_32 escs for the latest tech, airbot do a small wraith32 for example.
You might have a bit of trouble with the cam and the flight stack, I would be tempted to use a lux v2flight controller as the inset will give you more room. However that doesn’t come with an osd. On the other hand the cam has an osd that displays the lipo voltage which is all I use anyway, so the lack of osd on the fc would not wory me Personnaly, I mention it only because you asked.
Would suggest a tbs unify pro hv race vtx, with a tbs cloverleaf ufl or axii ufl antenna


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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 19:28:52 »
Btw, not sure what you want the split for, but this is footage from today and yesterday recorded by goggles DVR and then butchered by YouTube


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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 20:44:30 »
That footage is really impressive from an FPV camera, is it the micro swift you are using?

I'm leaning towards the kit with the RunCam swift at the moment, it seems a good one to learn on without me finding lots of separate parts, it also looks cool in your vids.

I was only leaning towards the split so I could watch the footage back later

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2017, 00:06:26 »
That is the runcam microswift.
I have another with micro arrow and footage is just as good

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Re: Noob - wanting a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #22 on: Today at 12:54:40 »
I've ordered an Eachine E010 and an FPV camera and a couple of upgrades just to get me practicing FPV indoors :)

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